45 ms·

> In Java it would be a nest of SortComparator interfaces and SortAlgorithm implementors, which would act to hide the algorithm itself. That is odd because whe

by NovaX 5y ago

> In Java it would be a nest of SortComparator interfaces and SortAlgorithm implementors, which would act to hide the algorithm itself. That is odd because when I look at the Java style, DualPivotQuicksort [1], it seems that the language authors did not do that. This is so very strange! Their methods are long, complex, and highly documented. Maybe they must be really incompetent Java programmers? I mean, they did put this obtuse abstraction by hiding it in Arrays. That's super crazy, just look at this monstrosity!!! public static void sort(int[] a) { DualPivotQuicksort.sort(a, 0, 0, a.length); } Maybe you need to have an intervention with them? Somehow, in some crazy world, even Java programmers are capable of writing good and efficient code. Its like bad developers might do an awful in job in whatever language they used? Can't be true... [1] https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/src/java.base/share/classes/java/util/DualPivotQuicksort.java https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/src/java.base/sha...

josephg 5y ago
The "enterprise" programming culture which has emerged around Java doesn't impinge on all java code. But it is still a real thing. The fact that openjdk authors can rise above it and write clean, reusable Java code is obviously good. The fact that there is something that needs to be risen above is unfortunate. I think the same about Javascript, though the specifics are different. I've been writing JS for years, but I've been moving away from it lately because increasingly I feel like an odd duck in the JS world. Most javascript programmers have much less experience (in any language) than I do. When I mention I write a lot of javascript professionally, people assume I'm an fresh faced bootcamp grad. Its sometimes hard to find high quality libraries on npm because the average quality there is reasonably low. Eg good luck finding a password generator which doesn't use Math.random(). Or finding an email parsing library which preserves the order of email headers. (This has semantic content!) Does there exist high quality java + javascript code? Sure. But even macdonalds makes good food sometimes. That isn't enough to make me a regular customer. Sometimes the right call is to fight for the ecosystem you're a part of and help it improve. I've done a lot of that. But you don't have to fight for high quality software if you just go where the high quality software is being made. Its easier to switch languages than change a culture. ... I'm being a bit sloppy and judgemental here. Maybe it would be better to say, each ecosystem has a set of values. Javascript values programming velocity, accessibility to new programmers and simplicity. Java has a different list. Insomuch as you're living inside an ecosystem, you don't get to simply ignore and dismiss those influences when you don't like them. It sucks writing Go if you hate gofmt. It sucks writing rust if you don't even want the borrow checker. And it sucks writing Java if you hate dealing with AbstractIteratorFactoryImpl. Even if there's some redeeming code in openjdk.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  The "enterprise" programming culture did not emerge around Java. It was already been there regardless of the language. I am old enough to have done Enterprise C, Enterprise C++, Enterprise VB, Enterprise Delphi, Enterprise xBase, ...
  - azth 5y ago
    I've seen and worked with enterprise golang code. Ugh.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >Javascript values programming velocity, accessibility to new programmers and simplicity. You are joking aren't you?
  - josephg 5y ago
    No, I'm not. Or at least, not as I see it. How would you describe javascript's values, compared to other languages? This is a great chart / explanation of this kind of thinking from Bryan Cantrill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ1pCpJUIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ1pCpJUIM
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      No integers. What's the difference between == and ===. Why do I need to learn two ways to declare a class. What module system should I use and why are they all different. Why isn't there much of a standard library. WTF is Grunt, NPM, etc. Just explain 'this' to me again. What is the distinction between null and undefined. What is the difference between for/of and for/in. JavaScript is far from accessible to new users neither is it simple.
      - coolgeek 5y ago
        I agree with most of your points. But the distinction between null and undefined is an important one. Its absence is a legitimate complaint about SQL.

by NovaX 5y ago

josephg 5y ago

The "enterprise" programming culture which has emerged around Java doesn't impinge on all java code. But it is still a real thing. The fact that openjdk authors can rise above it and write clean, reusable Java code is obviously good. The fact that there is something that needs to be risen above is unfortunate. I think the same about Javascript, though the specifics are different. I've been writing JS for years, but I've been moving away from it lately because increasingly I feel like an odd duck in the JS world. Most javascript programmers have much less experience (in any language) than I do. When I mention I write a lot of javascript professionally, people assume I'm an fresh faced bootcamp grad. Its sometimes hard to find high quality libraries on npm because the average quality there is reasonably low. Eg good luck finding a password generator which doesn't use Math.random(). Or finding an email parsing library which preserves the order of email headers. (This has semantic content!) Does there exist high quality java + javascript code? Sure. But even macdonalds makes good food sometimes. That isn't enough to make me a regular customer. Sometimes the right call is to fight for the ecosystem you're a part of and help it improve. I've done a lot of that. But you don't have to fight for high quality software if you just go where the high quality software is being made. Its easier to switch languages than change a culture. ... I'm being a bit sloppy and judgemental here. Maybe it would be better to say, each ecosystem has a set of values. Javascript values programming velocity, accessibility to new programmers and simplicity. Java has a different list. Insomuch as you're living inside an ecosystem, you don't get to simply ignore and dismiss those influences when you don't like them. It sucks writing Go if you hate gofmt. It sucks writing rust if you don't even want the borrow checker. And it sucks writing Java if you hate dealing with AbstractIteratorFactoryImpl. Even if there's some redeeming code in openjdk.

pjmlp 5y ago
The "enterprise" programming culture did not emerge around Java. It was already been there regardless of the language. I am old enough to have done Enterprise C, Enterprise C++, Enterprise VB, Enterprise Delphi, Enterprise xBase, ...
- azth 5y ago
  I've seen and worked with enterprise golang code. Ugh.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>Javascript values programming velocity, accessibility to new programmers and simplicity. You are joking aren't you?
- josephg 5y ago
  No, I'm not. Or at least, not as I see it. How would you describe javascript's values, compared to other languages? This is a great chart / explanation of this kind of thinking from Bryan Cantrill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ1pCpJUIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ1pCpJUIM
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    No integers. What's the difference between == and ===. Why do I need to learn two ways to declare a class. What module system should I use and why are they all different. Why isn't there much of a standard library. WTF is Grunt, NPM, etc. Just explain 'this' to me again. What is the distinction between null and undefined. What is the difference between for/of and for/in. JavaScript is far from accessible to new users neither is it simple.
    - coolgeek 5y ago
      I agree with most of your points. But the distinction between null and undefined is an important one. Its absence is a legitimate complaint about SQL.