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All I can say is that your scientific knowledge on the subjects are incorrect. I’m not trying to put down anyone in the “out crowd”. It’s simply that if we wa
by crazydoggers 5y ago
All I can say is that your scientific knowledge on the subjects are incorrect.
I’m not trying to put down anyone in the “out crowd”. It’s simply that if we want to talk about scientific subjects, then we need to use precise language. Math has its own language. Science uses math in many areas, which removes ambiguity. Unfortunately English and other languages are the best we have when communicating other topics, which is why it’s best to be very precise.
I understand all the points you make and I agree with some of them in many respects (I was an undergraduate English major)
It’s simply that the use of imprecise English terms when talking about science specifically with the general public often does more harm than good. For instance:
> A potential third is if you managed to make a chemical with an oxidizing agent on one end, and a reducing agent on the other... which now that I think about it sounds technically possible (if very difficult).
This lacks an understanding of redox reaction chemistry, since it’s not possible. Salt is NaCl, the Cl being an oxidizer and the Na being a reducer. You can’t cause salt to self combust. It’s just not possible. In this case we need to turn to more precise language, and the use of chemical formulas to explain why. It’s the perfect example of how in plain English something like you described sounds possible, but comes from a confusion introduced by the language. As a further example let’s say you mean that the oxidizer is on a remote far end of the molecule. Then what your are again talking about is that molecule acting as an oxidizer. If you want to imagine some large molecule with a strong reducing component on one end and a strong oxidizing component in the other, that also can’t “self oxidize” because it would be in constant reaction with itself. (To be even more specific requires even more specific language that is too much for one reply.. for example you can have molecules that get reduced and oxidized in something called a disproportionation reaction, but you’ve basically got multiple reactions happening with multiple products)
> I really think it does untold damage in peoples trust in these illiterate experts who keep insisting on facts that are simply wrong in the language called English that everyone else speaks.
Peanuts are legumes in a biological sense. It’s an important distinction because it matters about the types of proteins that peanuts contain (and tree nuts do not). This is due to bacteria in the roots that are able to fix nitrogen. So again, this is not about academic language… it’s about being clear and precise when it matters to talk about how the world actually is rather than how we perceive it.
Edit:
> It confuses, annoys, and generally makes the "out" crowd feel stupid. That confusion makes it easier to get them to accept conspiracies and pseudoscience, making them feel stupid makes them less likely to listen to you (as a whole group) when you try and show them why they are wrong. This is counter-productive.
I think there are many reasons for this, but I don’t think using clear and precise language is to blame. I think for one our society puts a stigma on saying “I don’t know”. No one should feel stupid for saying that, since it’s the start of all knowledge, and as a society we need to teach that.
I also think that the education system still does a poor job on science education in general. So very smart people end up unable to decide between “purveyors of knowledge”. If we judge arguments solely on their oratorical value, it’s easy to be mislead.
A great change to our education system would be better teaching of logic and biases, something like the following:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
- gpm 5y ago> All I can say is that your scientific knowledge on the subjects are incorrect. I doubt that, at least to the extent it's been used in this discussion. > This lacks an understanding of redox reaction chemistry, since it’s not possible. Salt is NaCl, the Cl being an oxidizer and the Na being a reducer. You can’t cause salt to self combust. It’s just not possible. I agree it doesn't occur with salt, that doesn't mean it can't happen. 2 Sn2+ → Sn4+ + Sn looks to be an example. I was actually imagining something more along the lines of H3C-CH2-CH2-CF3 managing to have the F3 end oxidize the H3 end (I strongly suspect that specific example doesn't work) - I'll ask the chemists in the house if they know of any such reactions tomorrow since Google isn't being much use... but it's certainly seems like it should be able to. > Peanuts are legumes in a biological sense. It’s an important distinction because it matters about the types of proteins that peanuts contain (and tree nuts do not). This is due to bacteria in the roots that are able to fix nitrogen. Agreed > So again, this is not about academic language Choosing to try and label "peanuts" as not "nuts" is. Introducing the phrase "tree nuts" is a much better way to be clear and precise, because you aren't trying to declare things that use to be nuts, not nuts anymore, and hoping that everyone will go along with it.
- gpm 5y agoRe your edit > but I don’t think using clear and precise language is to blame It's not the use of clear and precise language which is to blame, it's the attempt to redefine existing imprecise language in an incompatible way to make it precise that is to blame. I'm all for adding a discussion of logic to math, and fallacies/biases to some sort of civics/philosophy style course. I don't think that's going to solve the problem that trying to redefine words out under people doesn't go very well though. It's not a logic problem, because logic relies on the definitions being agreed upon, and what you have here is one group trying to change the definitions in a way that makes everyone else wrong.
- crazydoggers 5y agoI agree with you here. But from my perspective I think that’s exactly what the article is doing. They’re talking about hydrogen burning in imprecise language and then they mix in oxidizers, a word with only a scientific definition (oxygen being officially named and discovered by Lavoisier in the 1700s) And then when scientists do invent new words so they don’t “redefine words out under people” they’re called snobs. Its why burning usually is talked about specifically as combustion if there’s any chance of confusion. For scientists it’s a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. I just think theres room to be precise and I do think it has value. Trying to understand one another can be hard… miscommunication sometimes result in horrible results. And science education and communication to the lay person has been an unsolved problem since antiquity when then Library of Alexandria got burned down by an angry mob. I still think we can all benefit from talking things over, trying to be open minded and having civil discussions like we’re doing right here. Communicating clearly never seems like a bad thing to me.