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Uh, you parsed it right. He named it, but the microgenre known as "Dying Earth" would most recognizably start some decades before with The Time Machine and the

Uh, you parsed it right. He named it, but the microgenre known as "Dying Earth" would most recognizably start some decades before with The Time Machine and the somewhat lesser-known The House on the Borderland. It wasn't a new idea but he more or less summed it up in a succinct manner with an obvious name, then placed multiple stories within a timeline with some overlapping features, a bit like Varley's "Eight Worlds." After Vance made it, I think it entered into the sci-fi consciousness, such as it is, a bit more than some of the earlier works out there which fit, but somehow managed to slide by everyone.

rendall 5y ago
We'll have to agree to disagree. There is fin de siecle, a different literary genre, of which The Time Machine is part, that has similarities to the Dying Earth genre. Each is marked by apathy in the face of existential doom. The Dying Earth is a specific genre with its own tropes: wizards living in manses, dangerous creatures wander at night, many of which can talk, the earth has lived through several Ages, much knowledge has been lost. These are as much tropes of the subgenre as cyclopean ruins and ichor are tropes of Lovecraftian horror. The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Arguing the Vance did not actually create the Dying Earth genre because of fin de siecle is like arguing Lovecraft did not invent Lovecraftian horror because some previous authors wrote about terrifying gods.
- Retric 5y ago
  Actually I think we can argue about lovecraft not inventing the lovecraft genre because of the “Lovecraft Circle” which consisted of several contemporary authors all borrowing ideas from each other. Generally we talk of pioneers in a genre specifically because how commonplace such exchanges of ideas are.
- hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
  It is the magic; spells and systems, which make Vance new. The questing junior magician with limited spells - but powerful spells (suck as the expansible egg in which he sleeps) - finds a powerful older vat-wizard who is growing creatures in tubs, and the junior falls for one of the creations. The other major magic system of Vance is that of the elementals or demons (Sandestines and Daihaks) - taken from mythologies. Couldn't be more different than "The Time Machine". Vance is amazing, read him if you at all like the magic of D&D.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  >The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Welcome to Wikipedia. If you've ever tried to edit something glaringly wrong, even with proof, only to be insta-banned, you get a cookie! This has caused me to lose all trust in Wikipedia, I find I always have to check the sources/revision pages and even then it's just a clusterfuck. If it's wrong about something I know, how much of it is wrong that I've no clue about? Also do you or OP have a list of some of these books? They sound right up my alley.
  - rendall 5y ago
    The classic is Dying Earth by Jack Vance, but my favorite of the series is Eyes of the Overworld, and you'd be fine to read that first since the novels of the series are self-contained. My opinion is that the subgenre should by definition be self-consciously set in that world or something similar, and some of the novels that do that are from Michael Shea: https://goodman-games.com/blog/2021/07/20/the-other-cugels-saga-michael-sheas-a-quest-for-simbilis/ https://goodman-games.com/blog/2021/07/20/the-other-cugels-s... GRRM: https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/songs-of-the-dying-earth/ https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/songs-of-the-dying-eart... Mathew Hewes: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1743870.Majestrum https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1743870.Majestrum I know there are others, but I'd say start with Jack Vance. He's an underrated genius.

rendall 5y ago

We'll have to agree to disagree. There is fin de siecle, a different literary genre, of which The Time Machine is part, that has similarities to the Dying Earth genre. Each is marked by apathy in the face of existential doom. The Dying Earth is a specific genre with its own tropes: wizards living in manses, dangerous creatures wander at night, many of which can talk, the earth has lived through several Ages, much knowledge has been lost. These are as much tropes of the subgenre as cyclopean ruins and ichor are tropes of Lovecraftian horror. The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Arguing the Vance did not actually create the Dying Earth genre because of fin de siecle is like arguing Lovecraft did not invent Lovecraftian horror because some previous authors wrote about terrifying gods.

Retric 5y ago
Actually I think we can argue about lovecraft not inventing the lovecraft genre because of the “Lovecraft Circle” which consisted of several contemporary authors all borrowing ideas from each other. Generally we talk of pioneers in a genre specifically because how commonplace such exchanges of ideas are.
hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
It is the magic; spells and systems, which make Vance new. The questing junior magician with limited spells - but powerful spells (suck as the expansible egg in which he sleeps) - finds a powerful older vat-wizard who is growing creatures in tubs, and the junior falls for one of the creations. The other major magic system of Vance is that of the elementals or demons (Sandestines and Daihaks) - taken from mythologies. Couldn't be more different than "The Time Machine". Vance is amazing, read him if you at all like the magic of D&D.
effingwewt 5y ago
>The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Welcome to Wikipedia. If you've ever tried to edit something glaringly wrong, even with proof, only to be insta-banned, you get a cookie! This has caused me to lose all trust in Wikipedia, I find I always have to check the sources/revision pages and even then it's just a clusterfuck. If it's wrong about something I know, how much of it is wrong that I've no clue about? Also do you or OP have a list of some of these books? They sound right up my alley.
- rendall 5y ago
  The classic is Dying Earth by Jack Vance, but my favorite of the series is Eyes of the Overworld, and you'd be fine to read that first since the novels of the series are self-contained. My opinion is that the subgenre should by definition be self-consciously set in that world or something similar, and some of the novels that do that are from Michael Shea: https://goodman-games.com/blog/2021/07/20/the-other-cugels-saga-michael-sheas-a-quest-for-simbilis/ https://goodman-games.com/blog/2021/07/20/the-other-cugels-s... GRRM: https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/songs-of-the-dying-earth/ https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/songs-of-the-dying-eart... Mathew Hewes: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1743870.Majestrum https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1743870.Majestrum I know there are others, but I'd say start with Jack Vance. He's an underrated genius.