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In what world is hundreds of millions of people drastically changing their lifestyle because they've been instructed to stay home by their governments "individu

In what world is hundreds of millions of people drastically changing their lifestyle because they've been instructed to stay home by their governments "individual action"? That's a collective response to a crisis mandated by government.

deleted 5y ago
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dleslie 5y ago
Yes, the individuals were coerced to take action. Note that what many intend when referring to individual action is not that the individual _chose_ to take action, but that the individual _does_ take action. When claiming that individual action won't make a difference they're claiming that changing how we live as collective individuals won't make a difference; it doesn't matter what motivated that change for their thesis to be considered. IMHO, Governments ought to _heavily_ tax commercial office space to coerce companies to support WFH. Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear.
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
  I don't think I've ever heard an argument that defines individual action in the way you do. Most "individual action" arguments tend to lean towards pushing people to make individual choices to reduce emissions, and many are not substantive – take shorter showers! bike instead of driving to the gym! Even the actions that are reasonable – "give up air travel" – only become significant in aggregate. > IMHO, Governments ought to _heavily_ tax commercial office space to coerce companies to support WFH. Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear. I think that's absolutely reasonable and something that should happen now. But "I now work from home because my company told me to because the tax on the office/parking increased to push a shift in behavior" is absolutely not an individual choice.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    > I don't think I've ever heard an argument that defines individual action in the way you do. [...] Even the actions that are reasonable – "give up air travel" – only become significant in aggregate. One person making a change has never been a reasonable solution for global climate change; advocating for individual action has always meant making changes in the aggregate behaviour of individuals. > But "I now work from home because my company told me to because the tax on the office/parking increased to push a shift in behavior" is absolutely not an individual choice. Correct, it is not an individual choice. It is an individual action.
    - 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
      > Correct, it is not an individual choice. It is an individual action. Every world government has passed a law, rigorously enforced, that says each person can drive no more than 20 miles a week. dleslie drives 20 miles a week. Has dleslie performed an individual action to address climate change?
      - dleslie 5y ago
        Apparently I've done the opposite, because that's more than I drive in a week now. ;) But not to be trite, yes I would have. The Governments would be coercing individuals into taking action that would have an effect in aggregate.
        35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
        > Apparently I've done the opposite, because that's more than I drive in a week now. ;) Ha! Pandemics, eh? :) > But not to be trite, yes I would have This feels to me like over-egging the pudding - but getting into this discussion is really more of a question of philosophy than climate science, so it's a bit of a distraction. It seems that, beyond the semantics of what constitutes "individual action", we seem to agree with what's needed: > advocating for individual action has always meant making changes in the aggregate behaviour of individuals. > Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dleslie 5y ago

Yes, the individuals were coerced to take action. Note that what many intend when referring to individual action is not that the individual _chose_ to take action, but that the individual _does_ take action. When claiming that individual action won't make a difference they're claiming that changing how we live as collective individuals won't make a difference; it doesn't matter what motivated that change for their thesis to be considered. IMHO, Governments ought to _heavily_ tax commercial office space to coerce companies to support WFH. Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear.

35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
I don't think I've ever heard an argument that defines individual action in the way you do. Most "individual action" arguments tend to lean towards pushing people to make individual choices to reduce emissions, and many are not substantive – take shorter showers! bike instead of driving to the gym! Even the actions that are reasonable – "give up air travel" – only become significant in aggregate. > IMHO, Governments ought to _heavily_ tax commercial office space to coerce companies to support WFH. Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear. I think that's absolutely reasonable and something that should happen now. But "I now work from home because my company told me to because the tax on the office/parking increased to push a shift in behavior" is absolutely not an individual choice.
- dleslie 5y ago
  > I don't think I've ever heard an argument that defines individual action in the way you do. [...] Even the actions that are reasonable – "give up air travel" – only become significant in aggregate. One person making a change has never been a reasonable solution for global climate change; advocating for individual action has always meant making changes in the aggregate behaviour of individuals. > But "I now work from home because my company told me to because the tax on the office/parking increased to push a shift in behavior" is absolutely not an individual choice. Correct, it is not an individual choice. It is an individual action.
  - 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
    > Correct, it is not an individual choice. It is an individual action. Every world government has passed a law, rigorously enforced, that says each person can drive no more than 20 miles a week. dleslie drives 20 miles a week. Has dleslie performed an individual action to address climate change?
    - dleslie 5y ago
      Apparently I've done the opposite, because that's more than I drive in a week now. ;) But not to be trite, yes I would have. The Governments would be coercing individuals into taking action that would have an effect in aggregate.
      - 35fbe7d3d5b9 5y ago
        > Apparently I've done the opposite, because that's more than I drive in a week now. ;) Ha! Pandemics, eh? :) > But not to be trite, yes I would have This feels to me like over-egging the pudding - but getting into this discussion is really more of a question of philosophy than climate science, so it's a bit of a distraction. It seems that, beyond the semantics of what constitutes "individual action", we seem to agree with what's needed: > advocating for individual action has always meant making changes in the aggregate behaviour of individuals. > Make it so that the opportunities to commute start to disappear.