4 ms·

> These efforts will evolve and expand over time. I have no doubt they will. Pandora’s box has been opened, and okay, today the scanning is only for images upl

> These efforts will evolve and expand over time. I have no doubt they will. Pandora’s box has been opened, and okay, today the scanning is only for images uploaded to iCloud, and only for CSAM. But that is not auditable and subject to change at any time without notice. And today it is only looking at known hashes but the devices already have a capability to analyse images and even run OCR on them, this is not a matter of of these things will be weaponised but when. Can’t believe this is the same Apple that publicly defended the right to privacy for known terrorists by using the slippery slope argument themselves. The mind boggles.

comfymatrix 5y ago
> today the scanning is only for images uploaded to iCloud, and only for CSAM This, to me, would be exponentially less privacy invasive as I’ve come to assume all major cloud hosting providers implement something like this (look at Google Drive), but Apple has said that the scanning is done on-device, meaning whether or not you upload your photo library to iCloud, your local photos will be scanned with an on-device database of hashes. Essentially iOS photos now implement a direct API call to the feds with some vague “human verification” layer if you go above an unknown threshold
- asaddhamani 5y ago
  Right, this is what all the articles on this matter are getting wrong, unknowingly or otherwise. It’ll be one flag switch to change from scanning uploaded images to scanning local images. This is an erosion of fundamental human rights under the guise of “think of the children“ so that anyone who stands up against this tyranny can be labelled a “pedophile”. 1984 wasn’t like 1984 but 2021 is surely looking that way.
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    It’s a delayed concern for us in the West. First the bait and switch will happen in all parts of the third world, autocratic, and dictatorial governments. After all, our list of hashes will be different from what their agencies will provide. Across the globe Apple will assist in this. Then one day we get another Trumpian President who adds more categories of hashes in a place like America. What Apple is not willing to do is have that philosophical and ethical discussion with its customers. It has simply made the decision.
- bzbarsky 5y ago
  > but Apple has said that the scanning is done on-device Yes, but only for images being uploaded to iCloud. > meaning whether or not you upload your photo library to iCloud, your local photos will be scanned Not in the currently proposed implementation, if I understand correctly. Disclaimer: All my information about this thing is from news articles; I might be misunderstanding the details.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    So child molestors will disable iCloud upload and innocent people will have their privacy violated?
    - bzbarsky 5y ago
      That is one plausible outcome here, yes.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  > I’ve come to assume all major cloud hosting providers implement something like this They have, for the past decade. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
nyx-aiur 5y ago
The only problem is that you think a private cooperation and not the government YOU elect should be in charge of your privacy. Insanity this whole discussion is symptomatic with the whole tech bro movement. Everyone expects that the government THEY elect have the worst for them in mind. If you are really scared of your government you have to change the people that govern you and not build arbitrary tools to "secure" your privacy.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Everyone expects that the government THEY elect have the worst for them in mind. In basically every election, almost half of the voters voted for the loser.
- asaddhamani 5y ago
  The government has already done plenty of things without our knowledge, PRISM and the Snowden revelations. No matter who you elect the government will keep doing these things and will only expand the scope, and 99% of people won’t care, and the rest are labelled “the screeching voices of the minorities”. Apple made privacy their selling point (Privacy. That’s iPhone), and that set the expectations of privacy people have with their products. “Tech bro movement” what?
  - nyx-aiur 5y ago
    Holy shit these topics really show how delusional most of Hackernews is. If you think technology can change the world arbitrary from your government you are living in a dream that will falter fast.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- least 5y ago
  In the United States there exists a slim majority for much of the country's legislative houses. That indicates at least that there's a good chance if you don't have to right now that in your lifetime you will have to treat the government as adversarial. In all honesty I think everyone should treat the government as an adversarial force when it comes to respecting your privacy or rights. Much of bill of rights was introduced as a response to the concerns of the government's overreach. Built in protections to impede totalitarianism. In that regard, you can't simply rely on the government to legislate towards your interests and assuming that they will is foolish. Creating tools to secure your privacy is essential, not arbitrary.
shakna 5y ago
Australia has already moved to make legislation [0] that is basically an expanded version of it, with incredibly vague terms ("material... may be harmful"). Weaponising it has already begun. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/canberra-asks-big-tech-to-introduce-detection-capabilities-in-encrypted-communication/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/canberra-asks-big-tech-to-intr...
- dont__panic 5y ago
  Makes you wonder if this is a case of the creator getting ideas from the uproar about Apple's CSAM implementation. Or, optimistically viewed, perhaps someone trying to prove just how slippery the slow is?
- kfprt 5y ago
  So it took about a day for the slippery slope to kick in a slide right off a cliff.
  - noirbot 5y ago
    I mean, Australia has been putting forward insane tech bills to outlaw E2EE and demand backdoors for everything for years now. I don't think they're doing this because of the Apple news.
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
      As an Australian I can only cringingly verify this as true. The level of IT stupidity of BOTH our major parties hurts me when I think about it.
nabakin 5y ago
Where does it say OCR is used?
- niea_11 5y ago
  the gp comment doesn't say that OCR is used. It says that the devices have the capability. Which is the case for recent iPhones : https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/10/how-iphone-live-text-ocr-works-in-ios-15/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/10/how-iphone-live-text-ocr-work... There is so much rich information in your photos, from memorable places you’ve visited to handwritten family recipes. iOS 15 uses secure on-device intelligence to help you discover more in your photos, quickly find what you’re looking for, and relive special moments.
  - nabakin 5y ago
    My bad, I don't know how I missed that
cycop 5y ago
I am sure the product people at Apple are seeing $$$ 1) Scan devices for copyrighted music, to play your music you need to have it purchased on Apple 2) Scan devices for copyrighted videos, to play your video you need to have it purchased on Apple 3) Scan devices for copyrighted photos, purchase an Apple license to use this photo 4) Scan devices for copyrighted text, purchase an Apple license to use this text Apple - Think Licensing

comfymatrix 5y ago

> today the scanning is only for images uploaded to iCloud, and only for CSAM This, to me, would be exponentially less privacy invasive as I’ve come to assume all major cloud hosting providers implement something like this (look at Google Drive), but Apple has said that the scanning is done on-device, meaning whether or not you upload your photo library to iCloud, your local photos will be scanned with an on-device database of hashes. Essentially iOS photos now implement a direct API call to the feds with some vague “human verification” layer if you go above an unknown threshold

asaddhamani 5y ago
Right, this is what all the articles on this matter are getting wrong, unknowingly or otherwise. It’ll be one flag switch to change from scanning uploaded images to scanning local images. This is an erosion of fundamental human rights under the guise of “think of the children“ so that anyone who stands up against this tyranny can be labelled a “pedophile”. 1984 wasn’t like 1984 but 2021 is surely looking that way.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  It’s a delayed concern for us in the West. First the bait and switch will happen in all parts of the third world, autocratic, and dictatorial governments. After all, our list of hashes will be different from what their agencies will provide. Across the globe Apple will assist in this. Then one day we get another Trumpian President who adds more categories of hashes in a place like America. What Apple is not willing to do is have that philosophical and ethical discussion with its customers. It has simply made the decision.
bzbarsky 5y ago
> but Apple has said that the scanning is done on-device Yes, but only for images being uploaded to iCloud. > meaning whether or not you upload your photo library to iCloud, your local photos will be scanned Not in the currently proposed implementation, if I understand correctly. Disclaimer: All my information about this thing is from news articles; I might be misunderstanding the details.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  So child molestors will disable iCloud upload and innocent people will have their privacy violated?
  - bzbarsky 5y ago
    That is one plausible outcome here, yes.
GeekyBear 5y ago
> I’ve come to assume all major cloud hosting providers implement something like this They have, for the past decade. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

nyx-aiur 5y ago

The only problem is that you think a private cooperation and not the government YOU elect should be in charge of your privacy. Insanity this whole discussion is symptomatic with the whole tech bro movement. Everyone expects that the government THEY elect have the worst for them in mind. If you are really scared of your government you have to change the people that govern you and not build arbitrary tools to "secure" your privacy.

josephcsible 5y ago
> Everyone expects that the government THEY elect have the worst for them in mind. In basically every election, almost half of the voters voted for the loser.
asaddhamani 5y ago
The government has already done plenty of things without our knowledge, PRISM and the Snowden revelations. No matter who you elect the government will keep doing these things and will only expand the scope, and 99% of people won’t care, and the rest are labelled “the screeching voices of the minorities”. Apple made privacy their selling point (Privacy. That’s iPhone), and that set the expectations of privacy people have with their products. “Tech bro movement” what?
- nyx-aiur 5y ago
  Holy shit these topics really show how delusional most of Hackernews is. If you think technology can change the world arbitrary from your government you are living in a dream that will falter fast.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
least 5y ago
In the United States there exists a slim majority for much of the country's legislative houses. That indicates at least that there's a good chance if you don't have to right now that in your lifetime you will have to treat the government as adversarial. In all honesty I think everyone should treat the government as an adversarial force when it comes to respecting your privacy or rights. Much of bill of rights was introduced as a response to the concerns of the government's overreach. Built in protections to impede totalitarianism. In that regard, you can't simply rely on the government to legislate towards your interests and assuming that they will is foolish. Creating tools to secure your privacy is essential, not arbitrary.

shakna 5y ago

Australia has already moved to make legislation [0] that is basically an expanded version of it, with incredibly vague terms ("material... may be harmful"). Weaponising it has already begun. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/canberra-asks-big-tech-to-introduce-detection-capabilities-in-encrypted-communication/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/canberra-asks-big-tech-to-intr...

dont__panic 5y ago
Makes you wonder if this is a case of the creator getting ideas from the uproar about Apple's CSAM implementation. Or, optimistically viewed, perhaps someone trying to prove just how slippery the slow is?
kfprt 5y ago
So it took about a day for the slippery slope to kick in a slide right off a cliff.
- noirbot 5y ago
  I mean, Australia has been putting forward insane tech bills to outlaw E2EE and demand backdoors for everything for years now. I don't think they're doing this because of the Apple news.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    As an Australian I can only cringingly verify this as true. The level of IT stupidity of BOTH our major parties hurts me when I think about it.

nabakin 5y ago

Where does it say OCR is used?

niea_11 5y ago
the gp comment doesn't say that OCR is used. It says that the devices have the capability. Which is the case for recent iPhones : https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/10/how-iphone-live-text-ocr-works-in-ios-15/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/10/how-iphone-live-text-ocr-work... There is so much rich information in your photos, from memorable places you’ve visited to handwritten family recipes. iOS 15 uses secure on-device intelligence to help you discover more in your photos, quickly find what you’re looking for, and relive special moments.
- nabakin 5y ago
  My bad, I don't know how I missed that

cycop 5y ago

I am sure the product people at Apple are seeing $$$ 1) Scan devices for copyrighted music, to play your music you need to have it purchased on Apple 2) Scan devices for copyrighted videos, to play your video you need to have it purchased on Apple 3) Scan devices for copyrighted photos, purchase an Apple license to use this photo 4) Scan devices for copyrighted text, purchase an Apple license to use this text Apple - Think Licensing