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> Go through Vance's Dying Earth and you will find an Excellent Prismatic Spray, ioun stones, having to memorize spells (whose memory vanishes on use) I've he

> Go through Vance's Dying Earth and you will find an Excellent Prismatic Spray, ioun stones, having to memorize spells (whose memory vanishes on use) I've heard it called "Vancian magic" for years, but never looked into where that name came from. Now I know!

at_a_remove 5y ago
Vancian Magic is one of my least favorite mechanics. It worked in its original setting, and certainly I understand the desire to have a similar mechanic in the game itself, but it is one of those things which just does not hold up under scrutiny. And then the oddball psionics ... However, do not let these criticisms dissuade you from reading. Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him). He would often develop trickster characters who used vocabulary (often slightly wrongly) to seem more intelligent than they were, so there's a certain density to the writing, but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words, there's a playfulness to it which is entertaining when you find it.
- platz 5y ago
  have you ever read Infinite Jest
- marktangotango 5y ago
  > but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words Stephen R. Donaldson objects to this comment and implied aspersion!
- rendall 5y ago
  > Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him) That sentence reads like you're saying Jack Vance was not the originator of the Dying Earth setting, when he alone kicked off the genre with a book of short stories called the Dying Earth. I'm sure that's not what you meant.
  - at_a_remove 5y ago
    Uh, you parsed it right. He named it, but the microgenre known as "Dying Earth" would most recognizably start some decades before with The Time Machine and the somewhat lesser-known The House on the Borderland. It wasn't a new idea but he more or less summed it up in a succinct manner with an obvious name, then placed multiple stories within a timeline with some overlapping features, a bit like Varley's "Eight Worlds." After Vance made it, I think it entered into the sci-fi consciousness, such as it is, a bit more than some of the earlier works out there which fit, but somehow managed to slide by everyone.
    - rendall 5y ago
      We'll have to agree to disagree. There is fin de siecle, a different literary genre, of which The Time Machine is part, that has similarities to the Dying Earth genre. Each is marked by apathy in the face of existential doom. The Dying Earth is a specific genre with its own tropes: wizards living in manses, dangerous creatures wander at night, many of which can talk, the earth has lived through several Ages, much knowledge has been lost. These are as much tropes of the subgenre as cyclopean ruins and ichor are tropes of Lovecraftian horror. The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Arguing the Vance did not actually create the Dying Earth genre because of fin de siecle is like arguing Lovecraft did not invent Lovecraftian horror because some previous authors wrote about terrifying gods.
      - Retric 5y ago
        Actually I think we can argue about lovecraft not inventing the lovecraft genre because of the “Lovecraft Circle” which consisted of several contemporary authors all borrowing ideas from each other. Generally we talk of pioneers in a genre specifically because how commonplace such exchanges of ideas are.
      - hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
        It is the magic; spells and systems, which make Vance new. The questing junior magician with limited spells - but powerful spells (suck as the expansible egg in which he sleeps) - finds a powerful older vat-wizard who is growing creatures in tubs, and the junior falls for one of the creations. The other major magic system of Vance is that of the elementals or demons (Sandestines and Daihaks) - taken from mythologies. Couldn't be more different than "The Time Machine". Vance is amazing, read him if you at all like the magic of D&D.
- throwaway17_17 5y ago
  I think Vancian Magic can hold up well in a RPG. I am not a fan of the last 30-35 years of treating manic like a mutant power from X-men. The limitations are what crafted interesting tactical situations from my perspective. I do think there is room for other types of magic in a game however. The Vancian memorization or the 3rd Edition preparation seem to Tré force the idea that spells require ritual and effort. I certainly see a use case for small effort easily used cantrips or incantations that function more like video games or 5th Ed, though. I tend to favor that type of mix when doing game design.

at_a_remove 5y ago

Vancian Magic is one of my least favorite mechanics. It worked in its original setting, and certainly I understand the desire to have a similar mechanic in the game itself, but it is one of those things which just does not hold up under scrutiny. And then the oddball psionics ... However, do not let these criticisms dissuade you from reading. Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him). He would often develop trickster characters who used vocabulary (often slightly wrongly) to seem more intelligent than they were, so there's a certain density to the writing, but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words, there's a playfulness to it which is entertaining when you find it.

platz 5y ago
have you ever read Infinite Jest
marktangotango 5y ago
> but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words Stephen R. Donaldson objects to this comment and implied aspersion!
rendall 5y ago
> Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him) That sentence reads like you're saying Jack Vance was not the originator of the Dying Earth setting, when he alone kicked off the genre with a book of short stories called the Dying Earth. I'm sure that's not what you meant.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  Uh, you parsed it right. He named it, but the microgenre known as "Dying Earth" would most recognizably start some decades before with The Time Machine and the somewhat lesser-known The House on the Borderland. It wasn't a new idea but he more or less summed it up in a succinct manner with an obvious name, then placed multiple stories within a timeline with some overlapping features, a bit like Varley's "Eight Worlds." After Vance made it, I think it entered into the sci-fi consciousness, such as it is, a bit more than some of the earlier works out there which fit, but somehow managed to slide by everyone.
  - rendall 5y ago
    We'll have to agree to disagree. There is fin de siecle, a different literary genre, of which The Time Machine is part, that has similarities to the Dying Earth genre. Each is marked by apathy in the face of existential doom. The Dying Earth is a specific genre with its own tropes: wizards living in manses, dangerous creatures wander at night, many of which can talk, the earth has lived through several Ages, much knowledge has been lost. These are as much tropes of the subgenre as cyclopean ruins and ichor are tropes of Lovecraftian horror. The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Arguing the Vance did not actually create the Dying Earth genre because of fin de siecle is like arguing Lovecraft did not invent Lovecraftian horror because some previous authors wrote about terrifying gods.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Actually I think we can argue about lovecraft not inventing the lovecraft genre because of the “Lovecraft Circle” which consisted of several contemporary authors all borrowing ideas from each other. Generally we talk of pioneers in a genre specifically because how commonplace such exchanges of ideas are.
    - hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
      It is the magic; spells and systems, which make Vance new. The questing junior magician with limited spells - but powerful spells (suck as the expansible egg in which he sleeps) - finds a powerful older vat-wizard who is growing creatures in tubs, and the junior falls for one of the creations. The other major magic system of Vance is that of the elementals or demons (Sandestines and Daihaks) - taken from mythologies. Couldn't be more different than "The Time Machine". Vance is amazing, read him if you at all like the magic of D&D.
throwaway17_17 5y ago
I think Vancian Magic can hold up well in a RPG. I am not a fan of the last 30-35 years of treating manic like a mutant power from X-men. The limitations are what crafted interesting tactical situations from my perspective. I do think there is room for other types of magic in a game however. The Vancian memorization or the 3rd Edition preparation seem to Tré force the idea that spells require ritual and effort. I certainly see a use case for small effort easily used cantrips or incantations that function more like video games or 5th Ed, though. I tend to favor that type of mix when doing game design.