6 ms·

Like many exposed to D&D at a formative age, I too used Appendix N as kind of a jumping off point for exploration and was startled to see what came from where,

• wlesieutre 5y ago
  > Go through Vance's Dying Earth and you will find an Excellent Prismatic Spray, ioun stones, having to memorize spells (whose memory vanishes on use) I've heard it called "Vancian magic" for years, but never looked into where that name came from. Now I know!
  • at_a_remove 5y ago
    Vancian Magic is one of my least favorite mechanics. It worked in its original setting, and certainly I understand the desire to have a similar mechanic in the game itself, but it is one of those things which just does not hold up under scrutiny. And then the oddball psionics ... However, do not let these criticisms dissuade you from reading. Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him). He would often develop trickster characters who used vocabulary (often slightly wrongly) to seem more intelligent than they were, so there's a certain density to the writing, but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words, there's a playfulness to it which is entertaining when you find it.
    • platz 5y ago
      have you ever read Infinite Jest
    • marktangotango 5y ago
      > but it is more than merely packing in the unlikely Scrabble words Stephen R. Donaldson objects to this comment and implied aspersion!
    • rendall 5y ago
      > Vance was a very interesting writer, and the Dying Earth setting was highly influential on D&D (not that it originated with him) That sentence reads like you're saying Jack Vance was not the originator of the Dying Earth setting, when he alone kicked off the genre with a book of short stories called the Dying Earth. I'm sure that's not what you meant.
      • at_a_remove 5y ago
        Uh, you parsed it right. He named it, but the microgenre known as "Dying Earth" would most recognizably start some decades before with The Time Machine and the somewhat lesser-known The House on the Borderland. It wasn't a new idea but he more or less summed it up in a succinct manner with an obvious name, then placed multiple stories within a timeline with some overlapping features, a bit like Varley's "Eight Worlds." After Vance made it, I think it entered into the sci-fi consciousness, such as it is, a bit more than some of the earlier works out there which fit, but somehow managed to slide by everyone.
        • rendall 5y ago
          We'll have to agree to disagree. There is fin de siecle, a different literary genre, of which The Time Machine is part, that has similarities to the Dying Earth genre. Each is marked by apathy in the face of existential doom. The Dying Earth is a specific genre with its own tropes: wizards living in manses, dangerous creatures wander at night, many of which can talk, the earth has lived through several Ages, much knowledge has been lost. These are as much tropes of the subgenre as cyclopean ruins and ichor are tropes of Lovecraftian horror. The wikipedia article on the subgenre is terrible, conflating fin de siecle with Dying Earth. Awful on many levels Arguing the Vance did not actually create the Dying Earth genre because of fin de siecle is like arguing Lovecraft did not invent Lovecraftian horror because some previous authors wrote about terrifying gods.
          • Retric 5y ago
            Actually I think we can argue about lovecraft not inventing the lovecraft genre because of the “Lovecraft Circle” which consisted of several contemporary authors all borrowing ideas from each other. Generally we talk of pioneers in a genre specifically because how commonplace such exchanges of ideas are.
    • throwaway17_17 5y ago
      I think Vancian Magic can hold up well in a RPG. I am not a fan of the last 30-35 years of treating manic like a mutant power from X-men. The limitations are what crafted interesting tactical situations from my perspective. I do think there is room for other types of magic in a game however. The Vancian memorization or the 3rd Edition preparation seem to Tré force the idea that spells require ritual and effort. I certainly see a use case for small effort easily used cantrips or incantations that function more like video games or 5th Ed, though. I tend to favor that type of mix when doing game design.
• samatman 5y ago
  Psionics really came into its own as a mechanism with the Dark Sun world. Instead of being an oddball power which you had to luck into, and which a lot of house rules just ignored, everyone had some psionic ability. There were specialized psionicists as well, but it was just a world where sentient beings (being D&D there were some racial exceptions) had psionic power.
  • at_a_remove 5y ago
    I have ... feelings ... about psionics, both as not quite fitting the setting (let's face it, late seventies was a lot of Zener cards mixed in with the occult business) and the mechanics. To be fair, I have never looked at Dark Sun. I think psionics could be workable, in a certain light, but that's the subject of a rather half-baked and long essay series I have been kicking about for a decade as to how to "fix" many of the issues in D&D in a way that does not result in the Endless Next Edition problem.
    • lakkal 5y ago
      Dragon Magazine #78 had some good ideas on how to make AD&D psionics work better.
  • da_chicken 5y ago
    I agree that psionics really only felt like they belonged in Dark Sun. The whole setting is more of a total conversion than any other setting. I was looking through my old books recently. The player rules for Planescape, another massively different campaign setting, was ~30 pages. Some of that was full page art, and they dedicated one page to each of the 16 factions (including non-factioned, IIRC). With all the jargon, lingo, and weirdness in Planescape, it was almost all lore changes. Under the hood, it was still the same old AD&D. In the first Dark Sun Campaign Setting box set, you get two main books: one book of lore and one book of mechanical changes. Each book is ~120 pages. There are rules for new races, new classes, new weapons, new armor, new spells, new environmental hazards, etc. The setting was 50% new lore and 50% new and changed mechanics. And DSCS didn't even have rules for psionics in it! They had a couple pages detailing the new psionic character creation rules, but it literally tells you to use the Complete Psionics Handbook! (The second Dark Sun Campaign Setting included a ~90 page psionics book that includes most of that content.)
• panzagl 5y ago
  This podcast seems pretty focused on Appendix N (from AD&D, after Arneson's direct involvement ended) instead of the origins of D&D as a whole. Google 'Secrets of Blackmoor' to get a better view of Arneson's influences.
• wolverine876 5y ago
  Gygax had a habit of erasing some other major influences from history, including co-developer of D&D Dave Arneson, and JRR Tolkien's works. Regarding Arneson, you can find documentaries online and books. Here are some other sources: Rules for Middle Earth by Leonard Patt (~late 1970): https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-precursor-to-chainmail-fantasy.html https://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-precursor-t... Tolkien was reportedly mentioned in versions of Chainmail (Gygax's precursor to D&D) and OD&D (the rare, staple-bound ~prototype/MVP version predating the breakthrough editions, Basic and Advanced D&D), but after an IP dispute the Tolkien references were removed and Gygax repeatedly disclaimed any interest in or influence by Tolkien, despite obvious similarities. There are also articles Gygax wrote for late-1960s fanzine, Thangorodrim, where he openly adopts Tolkien material: https://archive.org/search.php?query=thangorodrim https://archive.org/search.php?query=thangorodrim
  • walshemj 5y ago
    There is also some evidence of Tony Bath's and Hyboria influence moving strict Wargames rules towards a more role played experience.
  • jhbadger 5y ago
    It's a common trend among such creators. It's like Marvel. Stan Lee (and these days, Disney/Marvel) would like to have you believe that everything sprang from the mind of Lee, purposely ignoring people like Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. And speaking of Disney, Walt Disney himself downplayed the importance of people like Ub Iwerks, who were instrumental to the creation of Mickey Mouse.
    • teruakohatu 5y ago
      > Disney/Marvel There are no doubt teenagers who think Thor, Loki, Snow White etc. were all thought up by Disney/Marvel. Disney has been laundering (and copyrighting) folk history for a century now, and Marvel mythology for a little less time.
      • wolverine876 5y ago
• musicale 5y ago
  > Not a single mention of Dave Arneson in it, which pains me. I can forgive the omission of fiction that was inspired by D&D (really, Quag Keep and its greatly lagged sequel are terrible by almost any standard of fiction), but leaving out Arneson verges on the Downright Peculiar Definitely – Dave Arneson being the co-creator of D&D, via his legendary Blackmoor game/campaign. The original D&D rules, the Blackmoor supplement and setting, and the Temple of the Frog dungeon were all derived from Arneson's game. Arneson was brilliant and his work is inspiring; I can only imagine how amazing it would have been to take a game design course from him when he taught at Full Sail in the 2000s.