7 ms·

Medical apartheid? What’s that referring to?

by czzr 5y ago

ForHackernews 5y ago
Presumably they're referring to requirements for vaccinations to attend large public gatherings. I think it's an absurd hyperbole, myself.
- the-dude 5y ago
  > large public gatherings. In some counties it is much broader than that. Painting it as hyperbole sounds hollow if you are downplaying it yourself.
  - petre 5y ago
    If the gathering is large enough they can't stop it and will back down. See the yellow vests movement.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      That only works for gatherings not associated with a legal entity. For example a sports club ( football? ) can't ignore the rules or it will be fined / closed.
      - petre 5y ago
        It depends. In France unoins will organize public gatherings and won't be fined or closed because they have real power to shut down a whole sector of the economy and the ability to negotiate with the government.
- kristjank 5y ago
  Is it really, though? Both child abuse and the pandemic are serious issues with real world victims, and both are riddled with privacy, anonymity and personal integrity issues. If we don't act against them, people will die/get hurt, and if we act against it in a Macchiavelian manner, democracy and quality of our life suffers enormously. My observation is that in the name of: a) Covid b) Counterterrorism c) Child abuse almost everything can be presented as justifiable, at least to the mainstream media. The burden of questioning the rulers' decisions remains on us, and the limitations of personal freedom, both digital and physical, set a dangerous precendent to anything that might happen in the future.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    The abuses rationalized by the War on Terror, such as mass surveillance and profiling haven't been walked back. Yet many somehow believe vaccine passports won't be similarly result in mission creep and abuse. More recently it has been suggested to expand the designation of terrorist to include those who have concerns about this process. When has government willingly returned liberties taken under emergency pretenses? Once Pandora's box is opened...
    - ForHackernews 5y ago
      > When has government willingly returned liberties taken under emergency pretenses? How about the dozens of times already since the start of this pandemic? Every time case rates drop even slightly, they've rushed to re-open businesses, eliminate mask rules and limitations on gatherings.
      - aww_dang 5y ago
        There have been some outliers like Florida's Ron DeSantis, but for the most part lockdowns have been on and off. The CDC now recommends masking for vaccinated individuals. Restrict, loosen restrictions and then tighten restrictions further. Repeat as necessary. Say what you will of some of the temporary restorations of freedom of movement, but they've normalized putting people on house arrest. The goal in my view appears to be getting people onboard with the vaccine passports. Once implemented it will be a stepping stone towards CBDC, UBI and social credit scores. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-23/digital-ids-for-digital-currencies-how-the-pandemic-may-speed-a-solution https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-23/digita...
  - ForHackernews 5y ago
    Yes it's absolutely hyperbole to compare the racist policy of apartheid to reasonable restrictions on people who voluntarily choose to avoid vaccines for mostly-nonsense reasons. Do you also oppose driver's license restrictions? Or existing pre-covid vaccine requirements? I struggle to see how these new restrictions are so onerous.
bserge 5y ago
Well, people of a certain background get treated like shit by the supposedly universal healthcare systems in Europe, so there's that.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Could you please specify 'certain' instead of hinting? Sources would be great too.
  - slickrick216 5y ago
    I think he’s talking about anti vaxers. Which I’m not. Have the J&J one and doing quite well. Just believe it’s a choice. They also quite often use it to invoke being from a working class background. Which I am actually.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      How are they treated like shit?
argvargc 5y ago
Various European countries are mandating vaccination or face the following consequences: - unable to shop/buy food - unable to use public transport - no concerts/movies - no restaurants - unable to go to hospital Along with bankrupting fines and jail time for businesses that do not comply. France, Italy, Germany, Greece, the UK and others are experiencing widespread protest - some in the millions - and unilaterally across some of those countries, in many cities and small towns, as a result. Protestors are unified as vaccinated and unvaccinated - scenes have emerged of vaccinated burning their vaccine passports en masse in solidarity for example. Most of this is barely reported in world or US news, along with radio silence on the extreme police brutality that often meets such protests. Search on odysee or other uncensored video platforms, and you'll find countless examples of massive protest and egregious police-instigated violence even just from over the past few weeks. Figure out the language-specific hashtags for them, and you can find many threads with live video etc on social media in the weekends. Several organisations and unions are also striking/walking-out against such measures, and this is also not being widely reported, though they can be found in regional, language-specific news. Most people outside of Europe have no idea what is happening within it right now regarding these issues, because of widespread big-tech and government-supported censorship. This of course also fuels more protest as protestors can see they are not being reported on despite their huge numbers - which then causes more to join as they agree with the injustice. These protests have apparently only increased in numbers since beginning many months ago, and continue to do so despite increased police violence against them. One of the central claims of protestors is "medical apartheid", forced segregation etc. Typically, those enforcing such measures are denounced as "Nazi's", and this opinion appears to be widespread and volatile. It's unsurprising given the history of many of those countries that they would react strongly to what they perceive as a recreation of prior national shame.
- the-dude 5y ago
  > some in the millions Sources? From what I have seen, marches of 100k max.
  - argvargc 5y ago
    Country-wide. It's typically in the 100k's per major city. The last Yellow Vest protest in France was organised in 80 cities & towns. For an example of underrepresentation, "160k" was the "official" figure for the totality of France recently in the few mainstream media reports. Most "official" figures, if they report at all, are multiple factors low, or in same cases orders of magnitude too low. Eg, just the single public square in Paris (place de la concorde) protestors have occupied in most protests, easily holds much more than 160k, on its own. That was just one square in one (albeit the biggest) city that day. Find drone shots or timelapses to make estimates, for example: odysee.com/@alltheworldsastage:0/Aug-7th-Paris---Montpellier-France-Massive-Anti-Vaccine-Passport-Protests-Libert%C3%A9-Manifestations:2? (Absolutely don't endorse this channel or anything - but this bit of content in this case is largely unedited or editorialised, and is sourced.) If you find a good visual source, use one of various free crowd estimator tools to see for yourself. Draw lines on the map and drag a slider for crowd density - eg the above-mentioned square in Paris is 50k for a light crowd, up to 200k+ for a packed crowd - and the protests meet the definition of packed. There are no easily-accessible, centralised and vetted sources of indisputable information during times of widespread censorship - you simply have to go look and do the work of vetting it yourself. Beware sometimes it's mislabelled/misinformation, eg, actually shots of a world cup celebration (likely intended to discredit). It's not hard to be discerning however - if absolutely everyone is holding the countries flag and there are no signs, it's likely a sports or other national celebration. If some are holding flags and others are holding signs saying "liberte" it's a protest. You need to learn the foreign words for freedom and vaccine passport at least. In Italy it's easy as the word for "no" is the same as English and the word for vaccine passport is "green pass": so "no green pass", as various members of parliament ambushed the center of a parliament session and held up signs saying so recently. You can bet if multiple members of parliament are flooding the central chamber of government of a major European country with protest signs, then protests are at least in the millions.
slickrick216 5y ago
EU covid pass and medical discrimination now in Europe but also world wide.

Medical apartheid? What’s that referring to?

by czzr 5y ago

Medical apartheid? What’s that referring to?

Presumably they're referring to requirements for vaccinations to attend large public gatherings. I think it's an absurd hyperbole, myself.

the-dude 5y ago
> large public gatherings. In some counties it is much broader than that. Painting it as hyperbole sounds hollow if you are downplaying it yourself.
- petre 5y ago
  If the gathering is large enough they can't stop it and will back down. See the yellow vests movement.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    That only works for gatherings not associated with a legal entity. For example a sports club ( football? ) can't ignore the rules or it will be fined / closed.
    - petre 5y ago
      It depends. In France unoins will organize public gatherings and won't be fined or closed because they have real power to shut down a whole sector of the economy and the ability to negotiate with the government.
kristjank 5y ago
Is it really, though? Both child abuse and the pandemic are serious issues with real world victims, and both are riddled with privacy, anonymity and personal integrity issues. If we don't act against them, people will die/get hurt, and if we act against it in a Macchiavelian manner, democracy and quality of our life suffers enormously. My observation is that in the name of: a) Covid b) Counterterrorism c) Child abuse almost everything can be presented as justifiable, at least to the mainstream media. The burden of questioning the rulers' decisions remains on us, and the limitations of personal freedom, both digital and physical, set a dangerous precendent to anything that might happen in the future.
- aww_dang 5y ago
  The abuses rationalized by the War on Terror, such as mass surveillance and profiling haven't been walked back. Yet many somehow believe vaccine passports won't be similarly result in mission creep and abuse. More recently it has been suggested to expand the designation of terrorist to include those who have concerns about this process. When has government willingly returned liberties taken under emergency pretenses? Once Pandora's box is opened...
  - ForHackernews 5y ago
    > When has government willingly returned liberties taken under emergency pretenses? How about the dozens of times already since the start of this pandemic? Every time case rates drop even slightly, they've rushed to re-open businesses, eliminate mask rules and limitations on gatherings.
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      There have been some outliers like Florida's Ron DeSantis, but for the most part lockdowns have been on and off. The CDC now recommends masking for vaccinated individuals. Restrict, loosen restrictions and then tighten restrictions further. Repeat as necessary. Say what you will of some of the temporary restorations of freedom of movement, but they've normalized putting people on house arrest. The goal in my view appears to be getting people onboard with the vaccine passports. Once implemented it will be a stepping stone towards CBDC, UBI and social credit scores. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-23/digital-ids-for-digital-currencies-how-the-pandemic-may-speed-a-solution https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-23/digita...
- ForHackernews 5y ago
  Yes it's absolutely hyperbole to compare the racist policy of apartheid to reasonable restrictions on people who voluntarily choose to avoid vaccines for mostly-nonsense reasons. Do you also oppose driver's license restrictions? Or existing pre-covid vaccine requirements? I struggle to see how these new restrictions are so onerous.

bserge 5y ago

Well, people of a certain background get treated like shit by the supposedly universal healthcare systems in Europe, so there's that.

the-dude 5y ago
Could you please specify 'certain' instead of hinting? Sources would be great too.
- slickrick216 5y ago
  I think he’s talking about anti vaxers. Which I’m not. Have the J&J one and doing quite well. Just believe it’s a choice. They also quite often use it to invoke being from a working class background. Which I am actually.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    How are they treated like shit?

argvargc 5y ago

Various European countries are mandating vaccination or face the following consequences: - unable to shop/buy food - unable to use public transport - no concerts/movies - no restaurants - unable to go to hospital Along with bankrupting fines and jail time for businesses that do not comply. France, Italy, Germany, Greece, the UK and others are experiencing widespread protest - some in the millions - and unilaterally across some of those countries, in many cities and small towns, as a result. Protestors are unified as vaccinated and unvaccinated - scenes have emerged of vaccinated burning their vaccine passports en masse in solidarity for example. Most of this is barely reported in world or US news, along with radio silence on the extreme police brutality that often meets such protests. Search on odysee or other uncensored video platforms, and you'll find countless examples of massive protest and egregious police-instigated violence even just from over the past few weeks. Figure out the language-specific hashtags for them, and you can find many threads with live video etc on social media in the weekends. Several organisations and unions are also striking/walking-out against such measures, and this is also not being widely reported, though they can be found in regional, language-specific news. Most people outside of Europe have no idea what is happening within it right now regarding these issues, because of widespread big-tech and government-supported censorship. This of course also fuels more protest as protestors can see they are not being reported on despite their huge numbers - which then causes more to join as they agree with the injustice. These protests have apparently only increased in numbers since beginning many months ago, and continue to do so despite increased police violence against them. One of the central claims of protestors is "medical apartheid", forced segregation etc. Typically, those enforcing such measures are denounced as "Nazi's", and this opinion appears to be widespread and volatile. It's unsurprising given the history of many of those countries that they would react strongly to what they perceive as a recreation of prior national shame.

the-dude 5y ago
> some in the millions Sources? From what I have seen, marches of 100k max.
- argvargc 5y ago
  Country-wide. It's typically in the 100k's per major city. The last Yellow Vest protest in France was organised in 80 cities & towns. For an example of underrepresentation, "160k" was the "official" figure for the totality of France recently in the few mainstream media reports. Most "official" figures, if they report at all, are multiple factors low, or in same cases orders of magnitude too low. Eg, just the single public square in Paris (place de la concorde) protestors have occupied in most protests, easily holds much more than 160k, on its own. That was just one square in one (albeit the biggest) city that day. Find drone shots or timelapses to make estimates, for example: odysee.com/@alltheworldsastage:0/Aug-7th-Paris---Montpellier-France-Massive-Anti-Vaccine-Passport-Protests-Libert%C3%A9-Manifestations:2? (Absolutely don't endorse this channel or anything - but this bit of content in this case is largely unedited or editorialised, and is sourced.) If you find a good visual source, use one of various free crowd estimator tools to see for yourself. Draw lines on the map and drag a slider for crowd density - eg the above-mentioned square in Paris is 50k for a light crowd, up to 200k+ for a packed crowd - and the protests meet the definition of packed. There are no easily-accessible, centralised and vetted sources of indisputable information during times of widespread censorship - you simply have to go look and do the work of vetting it yourself. Beware sometimes it's mislabelled/misinformation, eg, actually shots of a world cup celebration (likely intended to discredit). It's not hard to be discerning however - if absolutely everyone is holding the countries flag and there are no signs, it's likely a sports or other national celebration. If some are holding flags and others are holding signs saying "liberte" it's a protest. You need to learn the foreign words for freedom and vaccine passport at least. In Italy it's easy as the word for "no" is the same as English and the word for vaccine passport is "green pass": so "no green pass", as various members of parliament ambushed the center of a parliament session and held up signs saying so recently. You can bet if multiple members of parliament are flooding the central chamber of government of a major European country with protest signs, then protests are at least in the millions.

slickrick216 5y ago

EU covid pass and medical discrimination now in Europe but also world wide.