42 ms·

You're describing the objective function, but ignoring the constraints. Stop digging up coal - fine. Cut off power to people who have no other power sources? Er

You're describing the objective function, but ignoring the constraints. Stop digging up coal - fine. Cut off power to people who have no other power sources? Erm... What about emergency diesel generators for hospitals, diesel use for shipping goods (lowest-carbon-emitting means of transport). It's just not that simple.

johnchristopher 5y ago
I am pretty sure emergency diesel generators use a tiniest fraction of energy used by tankers moving goods around.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Indeed. But simply closing down everything that pumps fossil fuel out of the ground breaks things we like and need. It's not that simple. Or is the medicine still better than the disease? I don't know anymore.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Thing we need? Let's list them and figure out solutions Things we like? Sorry? I like living. I like this planet. Things we like very seriously need to take a back seat to needs right now. I've heard the same thing from a family member when I ask why they eat certain items while they are morbidly obese. Because they like them. Come on now, we're literally killing the planet with likes.
    - ahtihn 5y ago
      I like living too. I'm 100% confident that if we change absolutely nothing related to climate change, I'll keep living just fine. On the other hand, I'm also 100% confident that if fossil fuels are banned tomorrow, my life will be much worse. The choice seems pretty easy.
      - kataklasm 5y ago
        and that's why we have this mess: because of people like you in the governments of this world only thinking about theur personal, short-term gain... it's fucking ridiculous. don't you care about future generations and the way they'll inhert your planet?
        paulcole 5y ago
        At least he’s honest about it. 99% of the developed world has this mindset but pretends like they want to change.
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Sure. You are rich, living in a rich country. The poor living in poor countries will pay the price.
    - Throwaway197401 5y ago
      Here is a list 99% of all the products you take for granted are using fossile fuels. Medicin, contact lenses, paint, textiles, electronics, windmills, solar cells, concrete, asphalt, heavy machinery, most industrial manufactoring, all types of lubricants, plastic, mining, food production and I could go on. If you like living you are going to need most of the above. In fact if it wasn't for fossil fuel usage the likely hoood of you being alive let alone as rich as you are today would be very small. Energy is the industry that powers all other industries. You make that more expensive you make everything more expensive which means more people go hungry, less people can afford medicine, food production becomes more expensive and more people will die. It's really that simple. If you really believe we can do without all these things I would urge you to live without anything that has been made possible by fossil fuel industry for a month. Then you will realize just how live giving fossile fuel actually is.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        Numbers and quantities are important here. Also, it's important to realize that just because something uses fossil energy now, it doesn't have to in the future.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        Very good start for separating like from need, thank you! You're correct that these thing use fossil fuels, but that doesn't mean that's the only way of making them
        Throwaway197401 5y ago
        You will be hard pressed to find actual useful alternatives that work at scale to most of these. Plastic alone is a big one and most alternatives can only be used for very small niche areas compared to the flexibility of plastic. Medicine have no alternatives, electronics, windmills, solar cells etc. No alternatives.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    We have more than enough oil in storage now to fuel diesel generators alone for a long time. Emergency generators is not where the demand comes from. The medicine is still likely better than the disease, but it really entirely depends on how much you choose to downweight the worth of the lives of future generations. But yes, it is very likely that a solution will have to render formerly inhabited, far-flung areas as uninhabitable or at least much more expensive.
    - kevinthew 5y ago
      Diesel demand comes from shipping goods primarily. How do we replace the 4 million trucks on the road quickly? How do we get rid of container ship emissions? How do we solve backup generation problem? Go look at what's happening in South America right now because of low water levels -- lots of diesel generation. We need to wean off fossil fuels but governments need to subsidize and support alternatives which they are doing bare minimum today.
magicalhippo 5y ago
> What about emergency diesel generators for hospital Use carbon capture to generate fuel from the air. Yes it's expensive compared to regular diesel, but for use-cases with low consumption like emergency generators that really shouldn't be a huge issue.
- Throwaway197401 5y ago
  Making energy more expensive is going to kill people today.
  - Denvercoder9 5y ago
    Continuing carbon emissions is going to kill more people in the future.
    - Throwaway197401 5y ago
      No it's not and you have not a single scientifically demonstrated foundation for that kind of claims. Using fossil fuels is saving more lives, in fact it's making it possible for billions of people to live today. That wouldn't be possible without fossil fuels. In fact most of us wouldn't be here.
      - Denvercoder9 5y ago
        > No it's not and you have not a single scientifically demonstrated foundation for that kind of claims. There's pretty clear scientific consensus that climate change will result in more hurricanes, wildfires, heat waves, cold spells, floods, droughts and especially that there will be shortages of clean water and land suitable for agriculture. All of those things kill humans.
        Throwaway197401 5y ago
        Victims of climate related issues of plummeted the last 150 years. Drought death have plummeted by 98% alone. The always changing climate is less of a challenge today than it was 200 years ago when we were under 2billion people. That's the rational lense to look at this through not whether humans have some impact or whether the climate is changing which we do and which it always is.
unionpivo 5y ago
Diesel generators run on any kind of oil including kitchen oil. For emergency generators, that would be enough. For everything else we use oil for, not so much.
nosianu 5y ago
I did not tell anyone what they should or should not do! Also see my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127454

johnchristopher 5y ago

I am pretty sure emergency diesel generators use a tiniest fraction of energy used by tankers moving goods around.

rich_sasha 5y ago
Indeed. But simply closing down everything that pumps fossil fuel out of the ground breaks things we like and need. It's not that simple. Or is the medicine still better than the disease? I don't know anymore.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Thing we need? Let's list them and figure out solutions Things we like? Sorry? I like living. I like this planet. Things we like very seriously need to take a back seat to needs right now. I've heard the same thing from a family member when I ask why they eat certain items while they are morbidly obese. Because they like them. Come on now, we're literally killing the planet with likes.
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    I like living too. I'm 100% confident that if we change absolutely nothing related to climate change, I'll keep living just fine. On the other hand, I'm also 100% confident that if fossil fuels are banned tomorrow, my life will be much worse. The choice seems pretty easy.
    - kataklasm 5y ago
      and that's why we have this mess: because of people like you in the governments of this world only thinking about theur personal, short-term gain... it's fucking ridiculous. don't you care about future generations and the way they'll inhert your planet?
      - paulcole 5y ago
        At least he’s honest about it. 99% of the developed world has this mindset but pretends like they want to change.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Sure. You are rich, living in a rich country. The poor living in poor countries will pay the price.
  - Throwaway197401 5y ago
    Here is a list 99% of all the products you take for granted are using fossile fuels. Medicin, contact lenses, paint, textiles, electronics, windmills, solar cells, concrete, asphalt, heavy machinery, most industrial manufactoring, all types of lubricants, plastic, mining, food production and I could go on. If you like living you are going to need most of the above. In fact if it wasn't for fossil fuel usage the likely hoood of you being alive let alone as rich as you are today would be very small. Energy is the industry that powers all other industries. You make that more expensive you make everything more expensive which means more people go hungry, less people can afford medicine, food production becomes more expensive and more people will die. It's really that simple. If you really believe we can do without all these things I would urge you to live without anything that has been made possible by fossil fuel industry for a month. Then you will realize just how live giving fossile fuel actually is.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Numbers and quantities are important here. Also, it's important to realize that just because something uses fossil energy now, it doesn't have to in the future.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      Very good start for separating like from need, thank you! You're correct that these thing use fossil fuels, but that doesn't mean that's the only way of making them
      - Throwaway197401 5y ago
        You will be hard pressed to find actual useful alternatives that work at scale to most of these. Plastic alone is a big one and most alternatives can only be used for very small niche areas compared to the flexibility of plastic. Medicine have no alternatives, electronics, windmills, solar cells etc. No alternatives.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  We have more than enough oil in storage now to fuel diesel generators alone for a long time. Emergency generators is not where the demand comes from. The medicine is still likely better than the disease, but it really entirely depends on how much you choose to downweight the worth of the lives of future generations. But yes, it is very likely that a solution will have to render formerly inhabited, far-flung areas as uninhabitable or at least much more expensive.
  - kevinthew 5y ago
    Diesel demand comes from shipping goods primarily. How do we replace the 4 million trucks on the road quickly? How do we get rid of container ship emissions? How do we solve backup generation problem? Go look at what's happening in South America right now because of low water levels -- lots of diesel generation. We need to wean off fossil fuels but governments need to subsidize and support alternatives which they are doing bare minimum today.

magicalhippo 5y ago

> What about emergency diesel generators for hospital Use carbon capture to generate fuel from the air. Yes it's expensive compared to regular diesel, but for use-cases with low consumption like emergency generators that really shouldn't be a huge issue.

Throwaway197401 5y ago
Making energy more expensive is going to kill people today.
- Denvercoder9 5y ago
  Continuing carbon emissions is going to kill more people in the future.
  - Throwaway197401 5y ago
    No it's not and you have not a single scientifically demonstrated foundation for that kind of claims. Using fossil fuels is saving more lives, in fact it's making it possible for billions of people to live today. That wouldn't be possible without fossil fuels. In fact most of us wouldn't be here.
    - Denvercoder9 5y ago
      > No it's not and you have not a single scientifically demonstrated foundation for that kind of claims. There's pretty clear scientific consensus that climate change will result in more hurricanes, wildfires, heat waves, cold spells, floods, droughts and especially that there will be shortages of clean water and land suitable for agriculture. All of those things kill humans.
      - Throwaway197401 5y ago
        Victims of climate related issues of plummeted the last 150 years. Drought death have plummeted by 98% alone. The always changing climate is less of a challenge today than it was 200 years ago when we were under 2billion people. That's the rational lense to look at this through not whether humans have some impact or whether the climate is changing which we do and which it always is.

unionpivo 5y ago

Diesel generators run on any kind of oil including kitchen oil. For emergency generators, that would be enough. For everything else we use oil for, not so much.

nosianu 5y ago

I did not tell anyone what they should or should not do! Also see my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127454