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The implication -- and I think it's a valid one -- is that this client-side mechanism will be very quickly co-opted to also alert on non-CSAM material. For exa

The implication -- and I think it's a valid one -- is that this client-side mechanism will be very quickly co-opted to also alert on non-CSAM material. For example, Winnie the Pooh memes in China.

zepto 5y ago
I think it’s not valid to claim that it will be quickly used for that purpose. However I absolutely agree that it could be used to detect non-CSAM images if Apple colludes with that use case. My point is that this is immaterial to what is going on in China. China is already an authoritarian surveillance state. Even without this, the state has access to the iCloud photo servers in China, so who knows what they are doing, with or without Apple’s cooperation.
- Maakuth 5y ago
  You can label it collusion, but when Apple does it, it's going to call it _complying with local regulation_.
  - zepto 5y ago
    It doesn’t matter what you label it. Hand wringing over making things worse in China is not a valid concern.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      I'm old enough to remember when the revelation that NSA is spying on everyone was a shock. Now people are seriously arguing that continuous searching through your entire life without any warrant or justification by opaque algorithms is fine. It only took what, 10 years?
      - zepto 5y ago
        > Now people are seriously arguing that continuous searching through your entire life without any warrant or justification by opaque algorithms is fine. Where is anyone arguing that?
    - cvwright 5y ago
      Fine, then let’s talk about other countries. Does anyone seriously doubt that Germany will use this mechanism to ban Nazi imagery? Then from there, it’s not a big leap to talk about controlling far right (or far left) memes in France or the UK. More insidiously, suppose some politician in a western liberal democracy was caught with underage kids, and there were blackmail photos that leaked. Do you think those hashes wouldn’t instantly make their way onto this ban list?
      - zepto 5y ago
        > Fine, then let’s talk about other countries. I’ll let you change the subject, but let’s note that every time someone realizes privacy in China as a concern, it’s just bullshit. > Does anyone seriously doubt that Germany will use this mechanism to ban Nazi imagery? Yes. > Then from there, it’s not a big leap to talk about controlling far right (or far left) memes in France or the UK. This one is harder for me to argue against. Those countries could order such a mechanism, whether Apple had built this or not. Because those countries have hate speech laws and no constitutional mechanism protecting freedom of speech. This is a real problem, but banning certain kinds of speech is popular in these societies. It is disturbingly popular in the US too. That is not Apple’s doing.
        cvwright 5y ago
        It’s just sad how things have shifted. During the Cold War, the West in general and the US in particular were proud of spreading freedom and democracy. Rock & roll and Levi’s played a big role in bringing down the USSR. Then in the 90s, the internet had this same ethos. People fought against filters on computers in libraries and schools. Now that rich westerners have their porn and their video games, apparently many are happy to let the rest of the world rot. I guess I just expected more.
        zepto 5y ago
        I actually feel the same way. I miss those earlier eras. I just think that exaggerating scares is part of the problem, not the solution, regardless of which side of a debate is doing it.

The implication -- and I think it's a valid one -- is that this client-side mechanism will be very quickly co-opted to also alert on non-CSAM material. For example, Winnie the Pooh memes in China.

zepto 5y ago

I think it’s not valid to claim that it will be quickly used for that purpose. However I absolutely agree that it could be used to detect non-CSAM images if Apple colludes with that use case. My point is that this is immaterial to what is going on in China. China is already an authoritarian surveillance state. Even without this, the state has access to the iCloud photo servers in China, so who knows what they are doing, with or without Apple’s cooperation.

Maakuth 5y ago
You can label it collusion, but when Apple does it, it's going to call it _complying with local regulation_.
- zepto 5y ago
  It doesn’t matter what you label it. Hand wringing over making things worse in China is not a valid concern.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    I'm old enough to remember when the revelation that NSA is spying on everyone was a shock. Now people are seriously arguing that continuous searching through your entire life without any warrant or justification by opaque algorithms is fine. It only took what, 10 years?
    - zepto 5y ago
      > Now people are seriously arguing that continuous searching through your entire life without any warrant or justification by opaque algorithms is fine. Where is anyone arguing that?
  - cvwright 5y ago
    Fine, then let’s talk about other countries. Does anyone seriously doubt that Germany will use this mechanism to ban Nazi imagery? Then from there, it’s not a big leap to talk about controlling far right (or far left) memes in France or the UK. More insidiously, suppose some politician in a western liberal democracy was caught with underage kids, and there were blackmail photos that leaked. Do you think those hashes wouldn’t instantly make their way onto this ban list?
    - zepto 5y ago
      > Fine, then let’s talk about other countries. I’ll let you change the subject, but let’s note that every time someone realizes privacy in China as a concern, it’s just bullshit. > Does anyone seriously doubt that Germany will use this mechanism to ban Nazi imagery? Yes. > Then from there, it’s not a big leap to talk about controlling far right (or far left) memes in France or the UK. This one is harder for me to argue against. Those countries could order such a mechanism, whether Apple had built this or not. Because those countries have hate speech laws and no constitutional mechanism protecting freedom of speech. This is a real problem, but banning certain kinds of speech is popular in these societies. It is disturbingly popular in the US too. That is not Apple’s doing.
      - cvwright 5y ago
        It’s just sad how things have shifted. During the Cold War, the West in general and the US in particular were proud of spreading freedom and democracy. Rock & roll and Levi’s played a big role in bringing down the USSR. Then in the 90s, the internet had this same ethos. People fought against filters on computers in libraries and schools. Now that rich westerners have their porn and their video games, apparently many are happy to let the rest of the world rot. I guess I just expected more.
        zepto 5y ago
        I actually feel the same way. I miss those earlier eras. I just think that exaggerating scares is part of the problem, not the solution, regardless of which side of a debate is doing it.