3 ms·

I don't think things are as black and white as the article suggests. Especially the part about having an environment where its encouraged to mess up and ask ran

I don't think things are as black and white as the article suggests. Especially the part about having an environment where its encouraged to mess up and ask random questions. My experience so far has been the exact opposite. I have mainly been in confrontational environments, from my teen years on IRC to my work places. What I have learned is that if you say shit that are wrong, or if you try to talk without knowing your subject enough, you'll get smashed without mercy. I think this kind of atmosphere played a huge role in my development, on the positive side. If I had to intervene on a subject, I would be damn sure to know it well. If I had an issue at work, I would work hard to solve it and understand all the implications before asking for help. Not saying that's the best environment for everyone, but it sure is for some of us.

reidjs 5y ago
There's a fine line between discouraging questions and making sure new people don't waste the veteran's time with dumb questions. I think a lot of people are scared away from the field because so, so many things in software either work or they dont, and it's pretty straightforward to verify it. When you're new to programming, most of the challenge comes from asking the right question and finding the best answer. For example, "how do I sort a list of elements in python," which sounds very easy to answer, and it is for trivial cases. The complexity lies in the nuance of the question. For example, what if the list contains strings, numbers, and dates, and they were expecting it to sort by date? What if they need descending sort, not ascending sort? What if they need this for python 3, but they found a result for python 2, and they didn't even know there was a difference? As you approach solving harder and harder problems in your career, of course you can't just ask google once click the first result, and copy paste the top answer. You need to ask google many questions, click through random forum posts from 12 years ago, read a few books on the topic, write a patch for a legacy package, try a few things, read the documentation, collaborate with other developers, etc.
exporectomy 5y ago
You seem to be talking about bullshitting or posturing that more knowledgeable people find offensive. But asking a dumb question isn't like that. It might be annoying, but doesn't really anger people quite the same as pretending to know something you don't.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
I think the article is talking about something different, almost orthogonal. The confrontational environments you've been in - did they carry with them the risk of losing everyone's respect, or getting fired / banned from community as a punishment for trying to talk without knowing your subject enough? I'm gonna guess no. I've been in such confrontational environments (particularly around friends and colleagues in high school and on IRC) - we'd call each other out on their bullshit and overconfidence, but even the longest IRC flame wars were always on friendly terms. Direct, sometimes very heated, but always friendly banter. Such environment is also psychologically safe (at least for those who can handle the brashness), and is arguably very efficient at leveling up everyone's skill levels. The problem really starts when you feel at risk of being punished for being wrong - when you worry that a mistake will cost you your job, or that people are judging your code and looking for reasons to push you out come next layoff round. That's what creates a lot of perverse incentives that impede the functioning of teams and companies.
TehShrike 5y ago
It sounds like you and me both prefer what the author of this piece calls "combat culture": https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ExssKjAaXEEYcnzPd/conversational-cultures-combat-vs-nurture https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ExssKjAaXEEYcnzPd/conversati... I'm with you – I want people around who can call me out when I'm wrong. My read on what the author is saying: imagine if you or I didn't have anyone to call us when we don't know what we're talking about. Imagine if we didn't have people who would tell us that we were asking questions without doing due diligence beforehand. That's one side of what it's like to work without anyone to give you useful feedback when you're wrong. On the flip side, useful feedback doesn't need to be "smashing without mercy." It just needs to be direct and care about accuracy (e.g. Marilyn's review of Bill's code in the post).

reidjs 5y ago

There's a fine line between discouraging questions and making sure new people don't waste the veteran's time with dumb questions. I think a lot of people are scared away from the field because so, so many things in software either work or they dont, and it's pretty straightforward to verify it. When you're new to programming, most of the challenge comes from asking the right question and finding the best answer. For example, "how do I sort a list of elements in python," which sounds very easy to answer, and it is for trivial cases. The complexity lies in the nuance of the question. For example, what if the list contains strings, numbers, and dates, and they were expecting it to sort by date? What if they need descending sort, not ascending sort? What if they need this for python 3, but they found a result for python 2, and they didn't even know there was a difference? As you approach solving harder and harder problems in your career, of course you can't just ask google once click the first result, and copy paste the top answer. You need to ask google many questions, click through random forum posts from 12 years ago, read a few books on the topic, write a patch for a legacy package, try a few things, read the documentation, collaborate with other developers, etc.

exporectomy 5y ago

You seem to be talking about bullshitting or posturing that more knowledgeable people find offensive. But asking a dumb question isn't like that. It might be annoying, but doesn't really anger people quite the same as pretending to know something you don't.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

I think the article is talking about something different, almost orthogonal. The confrontational environments you've been in - did they carry with them the risk of losing everyone's respect, or getting fired / banned from community as a punishment for trying to talk without knowing your subject enough? I'm gonna guess no. I've been in such confrontational environments (particularly around friends and colleagues in high school and on IRC) - we'd call each other out on their bullshit and overconfidence, but even the longest IRC flame wars were always on friendly terms. Direct, sometimes very heated, but always friendly banter. Such environment is also psychologically safe (at least for those who can handle the brashness), and is arguably very efficient at leveling up everyone's skill levels. The problem really starts when you feel at risk of being punished for being wrong - when you worry that a mistake will cost you your job, or that people are judging your code and looking for reasons to push you out come next layoff round. That's what creates a lot of perverse incentives that impede the functioning of teams and companies.

TehShrike 5y ago

It sounds like you and me both prefer what the author of this piece calls "combat culture": https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ExssKjAaXEEYcnzPd/conversational-cultures-combat-vs-nurture https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ExssKjAaXEEYcnzPd/conversati... I'm with you – I want people around who can call me out when I'm wrong. My read on what the author is saying: imagine if you or I didn't have anyone to call us when we don't know what we're talking about. Imagine if we didn't have people who would tell us that we were asking questions without doing due diligence beforehand. That's one side of what it's like to work without anyone to give you useful feedback when you're wrong. On the flip side, useful feedback doesn't need to be "smashing without mercy." It just needs to be direct and care about accuracy (e.g. Marilyn's review of Bill's code in the post).