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I hate that the author broke out the short skirt rape thing. I don't think someone that leaves their house to strangers while they go out of town for a week is

I hate that the author broke out the short skirt rape thing. I don't think someone that leaves their house to strangers while they go out of town for a week is quite as innocent as a rape victim that was targeted for lack of modesty.

praptak 15y ago
Innocent? Careless != guilty.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  Right, but it's bad taste to equate a short skirt with letting someone you've never met live in your house completely unattended for a week. Most people have the sense to understand that that is a dangerous idea. I don't endorse either ransacking or rape, and I recognize that there was a crime that was committed here and that the victim is still a victim. But I think comparing that to comments that a woman "deserved" to be raped because of her attire is over the line and insensitive to rape victims.
  - chalst 15y ago
    The linked-to OP did not talk of deserving to be raped. You have inverted her point.
  - praptak 15y ago
    I only criticized your choice of words: "I don't think someone that leaves their house [...] is quite as _innocent_ [...]" implies that this somehow makes them guilty. I believe that both the homeowner and the figurative rape victim are equally innocent.
- biot 15y ago
  The word innocent also refers to childlike innocence, or an innocent mistake just as "loss of innocence" doesn't mean "becoming guilty" (at least not in a legal sense).
danilocampos 15y ago
> a rape victim that was targeted for lack of modesty. That's not really how it works.
- cookiecaper 15y ago
  This doesn't make sense to me and I don't know if you understood what I wrote.
- M1573RMU74710N 15y ago
  It is a difficult situation...on the one. hand you can't blame victims for crimes. That responsibility lies 100% with the criminals. On the other hand, in some cases someone is negligent in taking some easy precautions; and it's hard not to comment on it. I think that's important too. As others have noted this sort of thing is inevitable, and I think it's productive to talk about ways to possibly mitigate it. AirBnB was certainly negligent, and I understand the rationale at the time and why she was trusting can appreciate it....but still some common sense precautions like asking the neighbors/friends to check in on your renters and inspect the property could have prevented some of this. Hindsight is 20/20 and who knows how things would go...maybe no precautions could have prevented this. However I think for the sake of people who may be in a similar situation, it's important to talk about ways to protect yourself. The problem with the meme about "short skirt = rape" is not that it's completely without truth...the problem is that cases where a victim was actually negligent (to an appreciable extent) are exceptionally rare (say, they decided to go visit an ex boyfriend they knew to be violently insane who told them he would hurt them if he ever saw them again)...and even in such an exceptionally rare case rape apologists reach the wrong conclusions based on that. The topic is so sticky, I feel compelled to repeat myself. Victims are never to blame for the crimes, criminals are.... However as I believe in learning lessons from mistakes, I would feel compelled to think to myself that if you have an ex-boyfriend who is violently insane you should communicate though court orders, the police, or at least a telephone. That brings up another important distinction: it's not likely that others will be dating one's crazy ex-boyfriend...so there's not much need to have a discussion about possible ways of dealing with said ex-boyfriend. No person could really expect getting raped to be a reasonable outcome for wearing a short-skirt/walking alone. It's theoretically possible...so are so many other things that it's not practical to think of or try to avoid them all. The casual link between wearing a dress/walking alone and getting raped/attacked is much more tenuous (well really it's completely non-existent) than the link between opening your home to a stranger for a week without meeting them face to face or taking various other precautions. Most people could be reasonably expect problems from just handing over your keys to someone, even if it's just having your towels stolen...and everyone who is considering it should be beaten over the head with that fact and do as much as they can to mitigate that risk. This woman has a point that AirBnB was remiss in reminding her, they have that responsibility. She also has a responsibility herself to take precautions, but that does not negate AirBnB's...I also think she is completely aware at this point in where she failed....but for the sake of others reading the story who might face similar risks, I think it's worth-while to discuss it.
cabalamat 15y ago
> I don't think someone that leaves their house to strangers while they go out of town for a week is quite as innocent as a rape victim that was targeted for lack of modesty. Actually the evidence is the other way: women who wear modest clothing are more likely to get raped than those who wear sexy clothing. This is because rapists see modest clothing as a sign of submissiveness and are more likely to assault women they see as submissive. http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/17/does-provocative-clothing-protect-women-against-rape/ http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/17/does-provocative-clothin...

praptak 15y ago

Innocent? Careless != guilty.

cookiecaper 15y ago
Right, but it's bad taste to equate a short skirt with letting someone you've never met live in your house completely unattended for a week. Most people have the sense to understand that that is a dangerous idea. I don't endorse either ransacking or rape, and I recognize that there was a crime that was committed here and that the victim is still a victim. But I think comparing that to comments that a woman "deserved" to be raped because of her attire is over the line and insensitive to rape victims.
- chalst 15y ago
  The linked-to OP did not talk of deserving to be raped. You have inverted her point.
- praptak 15y ago
  I only criticized your choice of words: "I don't think someone that leaves their house [...] is quite as _innocent_ [...]" implies that this somehow makes them guilty. I believe that both the homeowner and the figurative rape victim are equally innocent.
biot 15y ago
The word innocent also refers to childlike innocence, or an innocent mistake just as "loss of innocence" doesn't mean "becoming guilty" (at least not in a legal sense).

danilocampos 15y ago

> a rape victim that was targeted for lack of modesty. That's not really how it works.

cookiecaper 15y ago
This doesn't make sense to me and I don't know if you understood what I wrote.
M1573RMU74710N 15y ago
It is a difficult situation...on the one. hand you can't blame victims for crimes. That responsibility lies 100% with the criminals. On the other hand, in some cases someone is negligent in taking some easy precautions; and it's hard not to comment on it. I think that's important too. As others have noted this sort of thing is inevitable, and I think it's productive to talk about ways to possibly mitigate it. AirBnB was certainly negligent, and I understand the rationale at the time and why she was trusting can appreciate it....but still some common sense precautions like asking the neighbors/friends to check in on your renters and inspect the property could have prevented some of this. Hindsight is 20/20 and who knows how things would go...maybe no precautions could have prevented this. However I think for the sake of people who may be in a similar situation, it's important to talk about ways to protect yourself. The problem with the meme about "short skirt = rape" is not that it's completely without truth...the problem is that cases where a victim was actually negligent (to an appreciable extent) are exceptionally rare (say, they decided to go visit an ex boyfriend they knew to be violently insane who told them he would hurt them if he ever saw them again)...and even in such an exceptionally rare case rape apologists reach the wrong conclusions based on that. The topic is so sticky, I feel compelled to repeat myself. Victims are never to blame for the crimes, criminals are.... However as I believe in learning lessons from mistakes, I would feel compelled to think to myself that if you have an ex-boyfriend who is violently insane you should communicate though court orders, the police, or at least a telephone. That brings up another important distinction: it's not likely that others will be dating one's crazy ex-boyfriend...so there's not much need to have a discussion about possible ways of dealing with said ex-boyfriend. No person could really expect getting raped to be a reasonable outcome for wearing a short-skirt/walking alone. It's theoretically possible...so are so many other things that it's not practical to think of or try to avoid them all. The casual link between wearing a dress/walking alone and getting raped/attacked is much more tenuous (well really it's completely non-existent) than the link between opening your home to a stranger for a week without meeting them face to face or taking various other precautions. Most people could be reasonably expect problems from just handing over your keys to someone, even if it's just having your towels stolen...and everyone who is considering it should be beaten over the head with that fact and do as much as they can to mitigate that risk. This woman has a point that AirBnB was remiss in reminding her, they have that responsibility. She also has a responsibility herself to take precautions, but that does not negate AirBnB's...I also think she is completely aware at this point in where she failed....but for the sake of others reading the story who might face similar risks, I think it's worth-while to discuss it.

cabalamat 15y ago

> I don't think someone that leaves their house to strangers while they go out of town for a week is quite as innocent as a rape victim that was targeted for lack of modesty. Actually the evidence is the other way: women who wear modest clothing are more likely to get raped than those who wear sexy clothing. This is because rapists see modest clothing as a sign of submissiveness and are more likely to assault women they see as submissive. http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/17/does-provocative-clothing-protect-women-against-rape/ http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/05/17/does-provocative-clothin...