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Def. (1) is better as a definition of sarcasm. Irony is more general, and can be far more subtle than the employment of simple opposites.

coldtea 5y ago
Sarcarm is irony in the sense of (1) but more snarky and heavy handed. Sarcasm, in other words, is "dismissive/heavily mocking" irony. >Irony is more general, and can be far more subtle than the employment of simple opposites. Well, wearing an in-appropriate cultural outfit as per my example, can be quite subtle. It's not just a "simple opposite" (like a Dem wearing a MAGA hat), it can tie to all kinds of subtle knowledge of this or that subculture.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  I’m not sure I’d consider a Dem wearing a MAGA hat or a hipster wearing a hillbilly shirt “ironic” because it’s not really usurping the viewers’ surface-level understanding of the message. Whereas I think several people wearing a “Think Different” shirt would be ironic because in trying to communicate that they think differently they’ve actually communicated how alike they are. What they’ve said on the surface is not at all what they’ve actually said. I think the MAGA hat dem example misses the critical two-different-messages aspect that makes something ironic.
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    Yes, the key quality of irony, as opposed to coincidence, is that in an ironic couplet, the second construct unwittingly reverses the first.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >I’m not sure I’d consider a Dem wearing a MAGA hat or a hipster wearing a hillbilly shirt “ironic” because it’s not really usurping the viewers’ surface-level understanding of the message. Irony doesn't have to be some huge usurping, tho. Same way a joke doesn't have to be good, it can also be a mediocre or bad joke.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  "Sarcasm" is literally flesh-cutting. If it isn't meant to wound, it's not sarcasm. It's true that "irony" is hard to pin down. But the excursions into explaining coincidence, parody and satire I found rather tedious - those terms don't need a whole podcast. They're straightforward words.

coldtea 5y ago

Sarcarm is irony in the sense of (1) but more snarky and heavy handed. Sarcasm, in other words, is "dismissive/heavily mocking" irony. >Irony is more general, and can be far more subtle than the employment of simple opposites. Well, wearing an in-appropriate cultural outfit as per my example, can be quite subtle. It's not just a "simple opposite" (like a Dem wearing a MAGA hat), it can tie to all kinds of subtle knowledge of this or that subculture.

elliekelly 5y ago
I’m not sure I’d consider a Dem wearing a MAGA hat or a hipster wearing a hillbilly shirt “ironic” because it’s not really usurping the viewers’ surface-level understanding of the message. Whereas I think several people wearing a “Think Different” shirt would be ironic because in trying to communicate that they think differently they’ve actually communicated how alike they are. What they’ve said on the surface is not at all what they’ve actually said. I think the MAGA hat dem example misses the critical two-different-messages aspect that makes something ironic.
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  Yes, the key quality of irony, as opposed to coincidence, is that in an ironic couplet, the second construct unwittingly reverses the first.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >I’m not sure I’d consider a Dem wearing a MAGA hat or a hipster wearing a hillbilly shirt “ironic” because it’s not really usurping the viewers’ surface-level understanding of the message. Irony doesn't have to be some huge usurping, tho. Same way a joke doesn't have to be good, it can also be a mediocre or bad joke.
denton-scratch 5y ago
"Sarcasm" is literally flesh-cutting. If it isn't meant to wound, it's not sarcasm. It's true that "irony" is hard to pin down. But the excursions into explaining coincidence, parody and satire I found rather tedious - those terms don't need a whole podcast. They're straightforward words.