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“Acquiring” natural immunity also has the following side effects at a much higher rate than the vaccine: - Death - Hospitalization - Chronic illness, which c

“Acquiring” natural immunity also has the following side effects at a much higher rate than the vaccine: - Death - Hospitalization - Chronic illness, which can include long-term neurological impairment I feel like it’s important to keep that in mind if you’re either advocating “natural immunity” as a public health strategy, or considering it a personal strategy.

slumpt_ 5y ago
Vaccination also has more durable immunity than natural immunity in this case. Without those risks you outline.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  * Citation needed.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  I expected this for the mRNA vaccine, but source?
  - tchalla 5y ago
    > Now, a new NIH-supported study shows that the answer to this question will vary based on how an individual’s antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 were generated: over the course of a naturally acquired infection or from a COVID-19 vaccine. The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
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- deleted 5y ago
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- anonuser123456 5y ago
  I’m not sure this is clear. Yes, this is what has been stated in the media, but I have yet to see data to back the claim. And in particular it has been shown that natural immunity produces a much broader set of antibodies that may allow the immune system to cope with variants better. I’m not advocating natural immunity btw. I completely agree people should get the vaccine.
  - slumpt_ 5y ago
    That’s actually incorrect. Someone was kind enough to cite in another reply to me. I’m honestly a bit disturbed how much confidence software engineers have in their consumption of virology research. My good friend has worked in it for 10+ years not including a doctorate and worked on an mRNA vaccine. I trust his takes more than any media and certainly more than some of these folks replying doubting the state of the science. Vaccines are the safest and best protection against COVID one can get. Not specifically replying to you with that, just the general tone of these threads. Folks are out of their depth.
    - anonuser123456 5y ago
      Hi Pot, meet Kettle? My statement literally starts with "I'm not sure...". You begin yours with "That's actually incorrect." Which expresses more confidence? My opinion is based on a conversation with a Ph.D immunologist that happens to be a friend as well. And if that's not enough here is a paper from a totally separate lab that has similar conclusions, with actual data https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1 mRNA vaccines are obviously much better at generating antibodies for the RBD. That's an empirical fact, no one is disputing that. But natural immunity presents antibody targets beyond the RBD.
      - slumpt_ 5y ago
        If you finished the post, I mentioned I wasn’t referring to you. With respect to the incorrect part, I was replying to: “…it has been shown that natural immunity produces a much broader set of antibodies that may allow the immune system to cope with variants better.” Which is indeed wrong. Hope that helps
briefcomment 5y ago
That's a strawman. Can you instead address this particular bucket: people who have had Covid, and are now wondering if they are as immune as they can hope for, considering all other available interventions.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > people who have had Covid, and are now wondering if they are as immune as they can hope for, considering all other available interventions. They are not "as immune as they can hope for" and would benefit from vaccination, after having had COVID, in that respect. Links posted already, but mainly https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-you-need-to-get-vaccinated-even-if-youve-already-had-covid-19 https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-you-need-to-get-v...
- plorg 5y ago
  I absolutely don't think it's a strawman. Nearly to a person, the people in my life who have not gotten vaccinated and have not yet gotten Covid-19, if asked, have been making this argument: it's not that bad, it's not worth getting the vaccine.
- ramraj07 5y ago
  Actually being infected with Covid (symptomatic) probably does confer the best immunity possible, for sure. You should still get vaccinated after that though, because research suggests that vaccination can significantly help alleviate long COViD symptoms which a large fraction of patients have. Haven’t seen actual numbers on the immunity boost conferred by post-Covid vaccination though (no reason to think it’ll not add at least a slight bit).
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The stabilized spike used in several of the vaccines appears to offer better resistance to new infection than convalescent immunity. (The theory is that the vaccine antibodies do a better job of binding to the active site on infectious virus particles than the antibodies induced from infection, which bind to whichever part of the virus, and may bind to the form the active site takes after attaching to a cell, rather than prior) Also, getting the vaccine as early as it is available is a better way to avoid long Covid than getting the vaccine after you've had a course of infection.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Well unfortunately COVID forgot to ask my opinion before gifting me with one for free
- mbgerring 5y ago
  I’m sorry you got sick, and I’m glad to see this study suggesting you have durable immunity! I worry that since it’s dated July 14 it may not have enough data on the Delta variant to be useful in considering your risk going forward. I hope you remain in good health.
  - anonuser123456 5y ago
    The immunity acquired from infection may be more robust against variants since a broader set of antibodies are produced.
    - tchalla 5y ago
      May be not. > The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
      - acituan 5y ago
        You can’t compare a longitudinal study with a cross sectional study. This study doesn’t account for the time dependent decay of vaccines’ immunity. There is more than one dimension to optimize for.
      - mikem170 5y ago
        Same source you quoted also says: >Our findings show that most COVID-19 patients induce a wide-ranging immune defense against SARS-CoV-2 infection, encompassing antibodies and memory B cells recognizing both the RBD and other regions of the spike, broadly-specific and polyfunctional CD4+ T cells, and polyfunctional CD8+ T cells. Meaning that natural immunity may be better, because it targets not just the spike protein like the vaccine, but also other parts of the virus.
chiefalchemist 5y ago
Links please. If those at risk aren't given the jab then counts of death and hospitalizations are going to be skewed against the natural immunity.
landemva 5y ago
Much of the death toll centers on those who are already sick, obese, and otherwise compromised. Age groups of children and young adults show remarkable resilience to infection. There is not one outcome.
- AnthonBerg 5y ago
  So you would have us call to those who are already tired and add death to their burden? I doubt it?
- nicoburns 5y ago
  There is nevertheless a significantly lower incidence of negative effects from the vaccine than from a covid infection in all age groups.
nullc 5y ago
> “Acquiring” natural immunity also has the following side effects at a much higher rate than the vaccine: > - Death The pfizer vaccine clinical trial had equal rates of death among vaccine and placebo recipients, FWIW. I don't believe any RCT has validated the claim that vaccination reduces the recipients chance of death. (Nor has any validated that parachutes save lives, I suppose!)

slumpt_ 5y ago

Vaccination also has more durable immunity than natural immunity in this case. Without those risks you outline.

nickthemagicman 5y ago
* Citation needed.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
I expected this for the mRNA vaccine, but source?
- tchalla 5y ago
  > Now, a new NIH-supported study shows that the answer to this question will vary based on how an individual’s antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 were generated: over the course of a naturally acquired infection or from a COVID-19 vaccine. The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
anonuser123456 5y ago
I’m not sure this is clear. Yes, this is what has been stated in the media, but I have yet to see data to back the claim. And in particular it has been shown that natural immunity produces a much broader set of antibodies that may allow the immune system to cope with variants better. I’m not advocating natural immunity btw. I completely agree people should get the vaccine.
- slumpt_ 5y ago
  That’s actually incorrect. Someone was kind enough to cite in another reply to me. I’m honestly a bit disturbed how much confidence software engineers have in their consumption of virology research. My good friend has worked in it for 10+ years not including a doctorate and worked on an mRNA vaccine. I trust his takes more than any media and certainly more than some of these folks replying doubting the state of the science. Vaccines are the safest and best protection against COVID one can get. Not specifically replying to you with that, just the general tone of these threads. Folks are out of their depth.
  - anonuser123456 5y ago
    Hi Pot, meet Kettle? My statement literally starts with "I'm not sure...". You begin yours with "That's actually incorrect." Which expresses more confidence? My opinion is based on a conversation with a Ph.D immunologist that happens to be a friend as well. And if that's not enough here is a paper from a totally separate lab that has similar conclusions, with actual data https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1 mRNA vaccines are obviously much better at generating antibodies for the RBD. That's an empirical fact, no one is disputing that. But natural immunity presents antibody targets beyond the RBD.
    - slumpt_ 5y ago
      If you finished the post, I mentioned I wasn’t referring to you. With respect to the incorrect part, I was replying to: “…it has been shown that natural immunity produces a much broader set of antibodies that may allow the immune system to cope with variants better.” Which is indeed wrong. Hope that helps

briefcomment 5y ago

That's a strawman. Can you instead address this particular bucket: people who have had Covid, and are now wondering if they are as immune as they can hope for, considering all other available interventions.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> people who have had Covid, and are now wondering if they are as immune as they can hope for, considering all other available interventions. They are not "as immune as they can hope for" and would benefit from vaccination, after having had COVID, in that respect. Links posted already, but mainly https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-you-need-to-get-vaccinated-even-if-youve-already-had-covid-19 https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-you-need-to-get-v...
plorg 5y ago
I absolutely don't think it's a strawman. Nearly to a person, the people in my life who have not gotten vaccinated and have not yet gotten Covid-19, if asked, have been making this argument: it's not that bad, it's not worth getting the vaccine.
ramraj07 5y ago
Actually being infected with Covid (symptomatic) probably does confer the best immunity possible, for sure. You should still get vaccinated after that though, because research suggests that vaccination can significantly help alleviate long COViD symptoms which a large fraction of patients have. Haven’t seen actual numbers on the immunity boost conferred by post-Covid vaccination though (no reason to think it’ll not add at least a slight bit).
- maxerickson 5y ago
  The stabilized spike used in several of the vaccines appears to offer better resistance to new infection than convalescent immunity. (The theory is that the vaccine antibodies do a better job of binding to the active site on infectious virus particles than the antibodies induced from infection, which bind to whichever part of the virus, and may bind to the form the active site takes after attaching to a cell, rather than prior) Also, getting the vaccine as early as it is available is a better way to avoid long Covid than getting the vaccine after you've had a course of infection.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

Well unfortunately COVID forgot to ask my opinion before gifting me with one for free

mbgerring 5y ago
I’m sorry you got sick, and I’m glad to see this study suggesting you have durable immunity! I worry that since it’s dated July 14 it may not have enough data on the Delta variant to be useful in considering your risk going forward. I hope you remain in good health.
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  The immunity acquired from infection may be more robust against variants since a broader set of antibodies are produced.
  - tchalla 5y ago
    May be not. > The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection. https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
    - acituan 5y ago
      You can’t compare a longitudinal study with a cross sectional study. This study doesn’t account for the time dependent decay of vaccines’ immunity. There is more than one dimension to optimize for.
    - mikem170 5y ago
      Same source you quoted also says: >Our findings show that most COVID-19 patients induce a wide-ranging immune defense against SARS-CoV-2 infection, encompassing antibodies and memory B cells recognizing both the RBD and other regions of the spike, broadly-specific and polyfunctional CD4+ T cells, and polyfunctional CD8+ T cells. Meaning that natural immunity may be better, because it targets not just the spike protein like the vaccine, but also other parts of the virus.

chiefalchemist 5y ago

Links please. If those at risk aren't given the jab then counts of death and hospitalizations are going to be skewed against the natural immunity.

landemva 5y ago

Much of the death toll centers on those who are already sick, obese, and otherwise compromised. Age groups of children and young adults show remarkable resilience to infection. There is not one outcome.

AnthonBerg 5y ago
So you would have us call to those who are already tired and add death to their burden? I doubt it?
nicoburns 5y ago
There is nevertheless a significantly lower incidence of negative effects from the vaccine than from a covid infection in all age groups.

nullc 5y ago

> “Acquiring” natural immunity also has the following side effects at a much higher rate than the vaccine: > - Death The pfizer vaccine clinical trial had equal rates of death among vaccine and placebo recipients, FWIW. I don't believe any RCT has validated the claim that vaccination reduces the recipients chance of death. (Nor has any validated that parachutes save lives, I suppose!)