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I agree to the payment. I disagree to the subscription model. I absolutely would try to hook users on any SaaS. However, I go out of my way to avoid such produ

I agree to the payment. I disagree to the subscription model. I absolutely would try to hook users on any SaaS. However, I go out of my way to avoid such products. If I can pay for them once, I much prefer it. (For something like jetbrains, I'm okay with a renewal fee because if I choose not to pay it, I can still use the older version.) I make an exception for Bitwarden because I like the idea of my password manager having continual security updates. However, it's one of the most frustrating parts of the webification of services - I want to pay for things once, and choose if I want the expanded features at any given time.

Terretta 5y ago
> For something like jetbrains, I'm okay with a renewal fee because if I choose not to pay it, I can still use the older version. 110% agreement. Further, the only thing I like less than subscriptions is IAP not of new feature sets but ‘pay-to-play’ where the mechanics of use are negatively distorted to gamify purchase impulse. I’ve argued — here, since inception of IAP on Apple’s app store — that the worst thing Apple has done to consumers was normalize removing the ability to show only single purchase paid apps in the app store. An vast class of less fortunate consumers either resign to less utility or waste time on an artificial “grind”, to encourage another class of “whale” to drive corporate revenues. I don’t mind extracting cash from whales who can afford it. I do have a problem inflicting artificial digital scarcity of utility or enjoyment on the masses to create the ‘hook’ for whales. As for subscriptions, it’s not clear to me that the treadmill of software/hardware upgrades is benefiting core use cases. I like paying for generational or disruptive change, “voting with my wallet” on what’s of worth to me, but after a couple decades of purchasing generations of Adobe software only when the features mattered to my work, I moved from Adobe to e.g. Affinity and feature sets I own instead of rent when these recurring subscriptions don’t appear to meaningfully benefit my productivity or output. For instance, it’s remarkable to me how similar the principles are between today’s (re-)emergence of Markdown for document composition and the early WordStar / WordPerfect / AppleWriter tools of the 80’s. I also like the experimentation by these Makers in ability to purchase a ‘pinned’ feature set, or support ongoing refinement. (Editors whether text or code, like JetBrains mentioned, seem to have a jump on this clever — and rare positive — use of IAP.) It’s difficult to show what increased utility of word processing has come from the most recent 20 years of paying for word processing upgrades. Today’s dev efforts suggest the sweet spot may be 30 years back. The flip side of this, economic models are still dissatisfying for affordability of basic bricks and mortar world rights such as housing. The least worst answer appears to be rent (with a dystopian jag into ad-supported!), and it may be the least worst for software is rent as well. Except when the ongoing annual software rents have risen to the same cost as one-time purchase (again, Adobe!), contrary to bricks and mortar where the over under is often 7 years of possession and use. Back to artificial digital scarcity — I’m concerned that advertiser funded access to quality writing is losing ground to monthly subscriptions for content. Are less fortunate kids going to be able to subscribe to NY Times, WaPo, Atlantic, Guardian, National Review, American Spectator, and so on, for $5 a month each? (News aggregations such as Next Issue could resolve this, but even as Apple’s “News+” this struggles.) Even more dissatisfying when a print publication goes down the same path as cable, first charging for something that was free, then eventually layering in the same ad content as when it was free. Artificial scarcity based IAP, data-broker supported (ad supported is fine, individual data for content is not), and the descent into the ironic sounding “gacha” model for software or content happy meals (utilities, clickers, news, etc.) — something thoughtful has to shift before we’re living in a future less Roddenberry than Idiocracy.
shephardjhon 5y ago
But in cyber security based software woulden't you need constant updates against new exploits? In something like Fusion 360 or Matlab or office I agree, if you dont need new features you shoulden't pay for updates.
- freeone3000 5y ago
  It's a password protected XML file with a GUI. If there's an attack surface to begin with, something went terribly wrong.
  - upbeat_general 5y ago
    Is this a joke? If password managers don't (or shouldn't) have an attack surface, what could (or should)? I could also describe all the data that google stores as "just a password protected DB with a web GUI"
stjohnswarts 5y ago
With applications however you are using your resources only. If you use a web app you are using their resources which they have to pay for continuously in perpetuity. To expect a one time fee for that and forever updates just isn't feasible. There is software out there for free that does what bitwarden does. KeePassX for example, so it's not like there aren't options.
jari_mustonen 5y ago
You know, I bought 1Password version 3 licence. There’s the support. Fast forward some time and the software started recommending that I uograde to version 4. After installing it, the software told me that it requires subscription from here on. It was almost impossible to roll back to version 3. I ended up switching to Unix pass.
- thunfischbrot 5y ago
  Similar story here. Slowly moved over to Bitwarden. UX almost as good and works well enough on all platforms. Chose Bitwarden for the company afterwards as well, only positive feedback.
  - decrypt 5y ago
    I would have moved from 1Password to Bitwarden as well, but I stayed on the 1Password ship for its native app. May reconsider now, as they are moving to electron.
- stimur 5y ago
  (disclamer, I work for 1Password) I can tell you a "secret" you can download any version of 1Password, including version 3 from this website: https://app-updates.agilebits.com/ https://app-updates.agilebits.com/

Terretta 5y ago

> For something like jetbrains, I'm okay with a renewal fee because if I choose not to pay it, I can still use the older version. 110% agreement. Further, the only thing I like less than subscriptions is IAP not of new feature sets but ‘pay-to-play’ where the mechanics of use are negatively distorted to gamify purchase impulse. I’ve argued — here, since inception of IAP on Apple’s app store — that the worst thing Apple has done to consumers was normalize removing the ability to show only single purchase paid apps in the app store. An vast class of less fortunate consumers either resign to less utility or waste time on an artificial “grind”, to encourage another class of “whale” to drive corporate revenues. I don’t mind extracting cash from whales who can afford it. I do have a problem inflicting artificial digital scarcity of utility or enjoyment on the masses to create the ‘hook’ for whales. As for subscriptions, it’s not clear to me that the treadmill of software/hardware upgrades is benefiting core use cases. I like paying for generational or disruptive change, “voting with my wallet” on what’s of worth to me, but after a couple decades of purchasing generations of Adobe software only when the features mattered to my work, I moved from Adobe to e.g. Affinity and feature sets I own instead of rent when these recurring subscriptions don’t appear to meaningfully benefit my productivity or output. For instance, it’s remarkable to me how similar the principles are between today’s (re-)emergence of Markdown for document composition and the early WordStar / WordPerfect / AppleWriter tools of the 80’s. I also like the experimentation by these Makers in ability to purchase a ‘pinned’ feature set, or support ongoing refinement. (Editors whether text or code, like JetBrains mentioned, seem to have a jump on this clever — and rare positive — use of IAP.) It’s difficult to show what increased utility of word processing has come from the most recent 20 years of paying for word processing upgrades. Today’s dev efforts suggest the sweet spot may be 30 years back. The flip side of this, economic models are still dissatisfying for affordability of basic bricks and mortar world rights such as housing. The least worst answer appears to be rent (with a dystopian jag into ad-supported!), and it may be the least worst for software is rent as well. Except when the ongoing annual software rents have risen to the same cost as one-time purchase (again, Adobe!), contrary to bricks and mortar where the over under is often 7 years of possession and use. Back to artificial digital scarcity — I’m concerned that advertiser funded access to quality writing is losing ground to monthly subscriptions for content. Are less fortunate kids going to be able to subscribe to NY Times, WaPo, Atlantic, Guardian, National Review, American Spectator, and so on, for $5 a month each? (News aggregations such as Next Issue could resolve this, but even as Apple’s “News+” this struggles.) Even more dissatisfying when a print publication goes down the same path as cable, first charging for something that was free, then eventually layering in the same ad content as when it was free. Artificial scarcity based IAP, data-broker supported (ad supported is fine, individual data for content is not), and the descent into the ironic sounding “gacha” model for software or content happy meals (utilities, clickers, news, etc.) — something thoughtful has to shift before we’re living in a future less Roddenberry than Idiocracy.

shephardjhon 5y ago

But in cyber security based software woulden't you need constant updates against new exploits? In something like Fusion 360 or Matlab or office I agree, if you dont need new features you shoulden't pay for updates.

freeone3000 5y ago
It's a password protected XML file with a GUI. If there's an attack surface to begin with, something went terribly wrong.
- upbeat_general 5y ago
  Is this a joke? If password managers don't (or shouldn't) have an attack surface, what could (or should)? I could also describe all the data that google stores as "just a password protected DB with a web GUI"

stjohnswarts 5y ago

With applications however you are using your resources only. If you use a web app you are using their resources which they have to pay for continuously in perpetuity. To expect a one time fee for that and forever updates just isn't feasible. There is software out there for free that does what bitwarden does. KeePassX for example, so it's not like there aren't options.

jari_mustonen 5y ago

You know, I bought 1Password version 3 licence. There’s the support. Fast forward some time and the software started recommending that I uograde to version 4. After installing it, the software told me that it requires subscription from here on. It was almost impossible to roll back to version 3. I ended up switching to Unix pass.

thunfischbrot 5y ago
Similar story here. Slowly moved over to Bitwarden. UX almost as good and works well enough on all platforms. Chose Bitwarden for the company afterwards as well, only positive feedback.
- decrypt 5y ago
  I would have moved from 1Password to Bitwarden as well, but I stayed on the 1Password ship for its native app. May reconsider now, as they are moving to electron.
stimur 5y ago
(disclamer, I work for 1Password) I can tell you a "secret" you can download any version of 1Password, including version 3 from this website: https://app-updates.agilebits.com/ https://app-updates.agilebits.com/