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What I’d like to see is a coalition of companies pitch in and develop an open platform to dethrone Android and iOS. If every big corporation with an app contrib

What I’d like to see is a coalition of companies pitch in and develop an open platform to dethrone Android and iOS. If every big corporation with an app contributed to Mobian, say, it could be done.

kfprt 5y ago
I'd like that too, however outside the HN bubble this isn't anywhere close to possible.
- robert_tweed 5y ago
  Surely if there's one thing the HN bubble is capable of, it's rallying a critical mass of contributors around a project like this.
  - kfprt 5y ago
    The HN bubble has intellect and skill, but certainly not the 10's of billions it would take to make a viable android/iOS competitor. At this scale only the government has the power to effect change.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Don't sell us too cheap: People connected to "HN Bubble" controls hundreds of millions if not a few billions of dollars. Not every of those dollars are liquid, far from that, but, in addition to the raw monetary value of certain people here HN also commands a lot of attention.
      - kfprt 5y ago
        I wouldn't oversell HN either. Arguably the value of HN lies in how relatively few users it has compared to FB or Reddit. Bringing to market a competitor to android/iOS that everyone including your parents could and would use would cost literally tens of billions. HN doesn't have that much clout, nowhere close.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        > would cost literally tens of billions You keep saying this as if it was somehow true or relevant. At this stage, we have no real need for an OS that grandma will want to use. That can come later. She can stay on iOS/Android for the time being.
        eitland 5y ago
        > that everyone including your parents could and would use would cost literally tens of billions. We need a name for this, the classic "someones parents can't use it and therefore it can't work fallacy". My parents don't use Mac. In fact most people don't, including me. Doesn't prevent Mac from being a huge success and a viable platform for developers. Same with a good number of applications: A few hundred or thousand hard core users. Bonus if one of them is an oil giant, a defense giant, the armed forces of a wealthy country or something.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  How much of the HN bubble is already comfortably employeed by these giants at golden handcuff level salaries? I don't think I'd look for disruption to come from here.
- bingidingi 5y ago
  it’s not even possible in the bubble
zozbot234 5y ago
At this stage, contributing to Mobian is not a matter of writing "apps". It's more of a boring job of hardware enablement and bringup on existing devices, probably best coordinated via postmarketOS (which has a successful history of upstreaming support to the mainline Linux kernel). The differences between pmOS and Mobian are comparatively trivial, so any work done on the former can easily benefit the whole FLOSS ecosystem.
- kfprt 5y ago
  While I love the FLOSS ecosystem I don't see how it's anything but a rounding error for consumer electronics. Unless there was a massive societal shift I don't see any future that includes a plurality of users owning FLOSS PC's or phones. The best place to start would be to get software freedoms included in the school curriculum.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    We don't need a plurality share of the market, we just need it to be useful for power users, like FLOSS operating systems on PC are today. That will make for a great starting point already - disruptive innovation will do the rest.
    - kfprt 5y ago
      This has got to be absolute peak HN bubble. OS's success is almost entirely defined by network effects. This is why the UNIX wars ended with everyone using Linux. It was available (for free) and lots of people used it. It wasn't better in any way, that came later. 'Disruptive innovation' in software is a myth. 'Power users' on HN are 95% software developers who have a very good experience with FLOSS because everything from the OS to the apps is written by them for them. This is absolutely not the case for anyone else. The number one reason people don't use FLOSS is because they can't get Adobe and MS Office. Without users FLOSS will never get these. Until FLOSS products are the plurality available on store shelves it will never reach the mass market. No one who isn't a software developer is switching to FLOSS and without a massive restructuring of society that will remain the case. I just wish we could be more realistic and work on finding strategies that would actually move the needle. Chiefly by lobbying governments.
deelowe 5y ago
I don’t care how we get there but I’d like to see a pic revolution of sorts for phones. I’m continuously let down by how quickly modern computing is being locked down. Unfortunately the opposite appears to be happening, PCs are becoming more phone like.
- DethNinja 5y ago
  Real scary next step is locking all PCs to MS Cloud and preventing consumers from accessing high performance computers.
  - kfprt 5y ago
    Indeed. On the bright side PC gaming may save humanity.
    - k12sosse 5y ago
      You've obviously never read global chat in Chivalry 2. ;-)
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    We need a way to manufacture our own computer hardware at home. We need hardware manufacturing to be as easy and democratized as free software development. Until then, we'll forever be at the mercy of these corporations.
    - l33t2328 5y ago
      That’s infeasible. Do you expect to be able to press your own semiconductors?
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
        Maybe one day someone will create new technology that will enable manufacturing electronics at home. I don't know.
perryizgr8 5y ago
Google would block access to its services from that os. Just like they did with windows mobile. And that would be the end of it.
ajb 5y ago
The companies in the best place to do this would be the chipset vendors, who essentially do all the work for Android already. However I don't see the incentive, there are probably legal obstacles, and finally companies generally fail at trying to replace their customers.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > who essentially do all the work for Android already They don't, that's the whole point. They do the bare minimum of booting up a barely-usable, heavily hacked downstream kernel, and call it a day (or rather, move to the next device release). "Proper" support is left to the community.
  - ajb 5y ago
    Look, I kind of agree with the sentiment, but I think your comment doesn't paint a very realistic picture of the situation. I'd estimate that there are above 3 orders of magnitude more people working on Android at the chip vendors than there are people working in the community. Which, these days, includes quite a lot of user space work, as well as the kernel. Essentially, any phone vendors other than the big names expects to get a fully-working Android image with their chipset to ship with the phone. And Google also punted a bunch of lower-end userspace work off on the chip vendors as well. Chip Vendors don't just ship drivers in that market. Not if they expect to sell any chips. Source: Worked at a chip vendor.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      OK then, replace "kernel" in my previous comment with "kernel plus a bunch of lower-level userspace". If anything, this makes things worse not better. It means we're re-introducing the possibility of duplicated effort and gratuitous breaks of compatibility in that lower-level userspace, which is exactly what we were trying to get away from via AOSP. This makes it more important rather than less to work on an AOSP alternative that's far more in line with existing Linux practices in the mainstream, non-embedded ecosystem. And let's face reality, the chip vendors aren't doing it.

kfprt 5y ago

I'd like that too, however outside the HN bubble this isn't anywhere close to possible.

robert_tweed 5y ago
Surely if there's one thing the HN bubble is capable of, it's rallying a critical mass of contributors around a project like this.
- kfprt 5y ago
  The HN bubble has intellect and skill, but certainly not the 10's of billions it would take to make a viable android/iOS competitor. At this scale only the government has the power to effect change.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    Don't sell us too cheap: People connected to "HN Bubble" controls hundreds of millions if not a few billions of dollars. Not every of those dollars are liquid, far from that, but, in addition to the raw monetary value of certain people here HN also commands a lot of attention.
    - kfprt 5y ago
      I wouldn't oversell HN either. Arguably the value of HN lies in how relatively few users it has compared to FB or Reddit. Bringing to market a competitor to android/iOS that everyone including your parents could and would use would cost literally tens of billions. HN doesn't have that much clout, nowhere close.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        > would cost literally tens of billions You keep saying this as if it was somehow true or relevant. At this stage, we have no real need for an OS that grandma will want to use. That can come later. She can stay on iOS/Android for the time being.
      - eitland 5y ago
        > that everyone including your parents could and would use would cost literally tens of billions. We need a name for this, the classic "someones parents can't use it and therefore it can't work fallacy". My parents don't use Mac. In fact most people don't, including me. Doesn't prevent Mac from being a huge success and a viable platform for developers. Same with a good number of applications: A few hundred or thousand hard core users. Bonus if one of them is an oil giant, a defense giant, the armed forces of a wealthy country or something.
blacktriangle 5y ago
How much of the HN bubble is already comfortably employeed by these giants at golden handcuff level salaries? I don't think I'd look for disruption to come from here.
bingidingi 5y ago
it’s not even possible in the bubble

zozbot234 5y ago

At this stage, contributing to Mobian is not a matter of writing "apps". It's more of a boring job of hardware enablement and bringup on existing devices, probably best coordinated via postmarketOS (which has a successful history of upstreaming support to the mainline Linux kernel). The differences between pmOS and Mobian are comparatively trivial, so any work done on the former can easily benefit the whole FLOSS ecosystem.

kfprt 5y ago
While I love the FLOSS ecosystem I don't see how it's anything but a rounding error for consumer electronics. Unless there was a massive societal shift I don't see any future that includes a plurality of users owning FLOSS PC's or phones. The best place to start would be to get software freedoms included in the school curriculum.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  We don't need a plurality share of the market, we just need it to be useful for power users, like FLOSS operating systems on PC are today. That will make for a great starting point already - disruptive innovation will do the rest.
  - kfprt 5y ago
    This has got to be absolute peak HN bubble. OS's success is almost entirely defined by network effects. This is why the UNIX wars ended with everyone using Linux. It was available (for free) and lots of people used it. It wasn't better in any way, that came later. 'Disruptive innovation' in software is a myth. 'Power users' on HN are 95% software developers who have a very good experience with FLOSS because everything from the OS to the apps is written by them for them. This is absolutely not the case for anyone else. The number one reason people don't use FLOSS is because they can't get Adobe and MS Office. Without users FLOSS will never get these. Until FLOSS products are the plurality available on store shelves it will never reach the mass market. No one who isn't a software developer is switching to FLOSS and without a massive restructuring of society that will remain the case. I just wish we could be more realistic and work on finding strategies that would actually move the needle. Chiefly by lobbying governments.

deelowe 5y ago

I don’t care how we get there but I’d like to see a pic revolution of sorts for phones. I’m continuously let down by how quickly modern computing is being locked down. Unfortunately the opposite appears to be happening, PCs are becoming more phone like.

DethNinja 5y ago
Real scary next step is locking all PCs to MS Cloud and preventing consumers from accessing high performance computers.
- kfprt 5y ago
  Indeed. On the bright side PC gaming may save humanity.
  - k12sosse 5y ago
    You've obviously never read global chat in Chivalry 2. ;-)
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  We need a way to manufacture our own computer hardware at home. We need hardware manufacturing to be as easy and democratized as free software development. Until then, we'll forever be at the mercy of these corporations.
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    That’s infeasible. Do you expect to be able to press your own semiconductors?
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      Maybe one day someone will create new technology that will enable manufacturing electronics at home. I don't know.

perryizgr8 5y ago

Google would block access to its services from that os. Just like they did with windows mobile. And that would be the end of it.

ajb 5y ago

The companies in the best place to do this would be the chipset vendors, who essentially do all the work for Android already. However I don't see the incentive, there are probably legal obstacles, and finally companies generally fail at trying to replace their customers.

zozbot234 5y ago
> who essentially do all the work for Android already They don't, that's the whole point. They do the bare minimum of booting up a barely-usable, heavily hacked downstream kernel, and call it a day (or rather, move to the next device release). "Proper" support is left to the community.
- ajb 5y ago
  Look, I kind of agree with the sentiment, but I think your comment doesn't paint a very realistic picture of the situation. I'd estimate that there are above 3 orders of magnitude more people working on Android at the chip vendors than there are people working in the community. Which, these days, includes quite a lot of user space work, as well as the kernel. Essentially, any phone vendors other than the big names expects to get a fully-working Android image with their chipset to ship with the phone. And Google also punted a bunch of lower-end userspace work off on the chip vendors as well. Chip Vendors don't just ship drivers in that market. Not if they expect to sell any chips. Source: Worked at a chip vendor.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    OK then, replace "kernel" in my previous comment with "kernel plus a bunch of lower-level userspace". If anything, this makes things worse not better. It means we're re-introducing the possibility of duplicated effort and gratuitous breaks of compatibility in that lower-level userspace, which is exactly what we were trying to get away from via AOSP. This makes it more important rather than less to work on an AOSP alternative that's far more in line with existing Linux practices in the mainstream, non-embedded ecosystem. And let's face reality, the chip vendors aren't doing it.