4 ms·

I think Britain has for a long time been less classist already. Article reminded me immediately of a NYT piece from a few years ago (https://www.nytimes.com/201

I think Britain has for a long time been less classist already. Article reminded me immediately of a NYT piece from a few years ago (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/opinion/sunday/stop-pretending-youre-not-rich.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/opinion/sunday/stop-prete...) "The American myth of meritocracy allows them to attribute their position to their brilliance and diligence, rather than to luck or a rigged system. At least posh people in England have the decency to feel guilty.In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school. Even Old Etonian David Cameron couldn’t do it. In the United States, the most liberal politician can pay for a lavish education in the private sector. Some of my most progressive friends send their children to $30,000-a-year high schools. The surprise is not that they do it. It is that they do it without so much as a murmur of moral disquiet." The US has a sort of Andy Warhol style egalitarianism of "a coke is a coke and rich and poor alike drink it" going on but not much else. In the US progressive tech workers live in secluded suburbs, in London you see the poshest banker taking the tube without much concern. Exception in the US is maybe only NYC.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> The US has a sort of Andy Warhol style egalitarianism of "a coke is a coke and rich and poor alike drink it" going on but not much else. I think this is the key bit and that's really well put.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Water is far better for you than a coke any day.
WalterBright 5y ago
That's because London has a very good tube system, such is completely absent in the US. Except maybe NYC. Attributing preference for the tube to some sort of moral humility is a stretch.
- Brakenshire 5y ago
  The quality of the Tube and the bus system is dependent on rich and poor people using it though, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
smcl 5y ago
> In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school Whoever wrote this is being a little disingenuous. The pipeline from a handful of private schools to the upper echelons of power (via Oxbridge) in the UK is very well known. The fact that the press wouldn't let the PM away with sending their kids to Eton or Harrow doesn't really change this or make the country more meritocratic, it just means we all pretend they're just like the rest of us for a few years.
- sharikous 5y ago
  Of course. But it is a significant data point in describing the culture divide between the UK and the US. The whole topic deserves an entire book. Even then, the answer "who is the most meritocratic" won't receive a straight answer. The point that British culture does not allow the prime minister to send their children to fancy schools is a meaningful one to make, among many others. It puts the UK closer to the Scandinavian/Northern European countries and the USA closer to less-than-democratic countries (MENA, Africa, Russia, China) on this particular axis.
  - smcl 5y ago
    It’s certainly an interesting wee fact but I don’t think it says anything about whether the UK should be considered more or less meritocratic. I think it’s a fig leaf where we get to pretend we are a super progressive country that is smashing its class system, while doing very little to that effect. To be clear - I don’t care where David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris et al send their kids to school. I care that such schools exist effectively to officially stamp you as a member of the upper class. Edit: I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m annoyed with you or the original commenter! I have some strong feelings about this but I am aware that you didn’t create this system, that you are not standing up for it or trying to protect it. We’re just having a discussion and as you say it really deserves an entire book
pjc50 5y ago
If Britain were meritocratic the cabinet wouldn't be made out of people who've failed upwards. > In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school. They are afforded some privacy, but all of Boris Johnson's "legitimate" children went to private schools as far as I can tell. https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1141456/Boris-johnson-kids-daughter-Lara-lettice-johnson-Bedales-boarding-school https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1141456/Boris-johnso... (sorry it's the sexpress, but this is fundamentally prurient) https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/08/01/how-many-children-does-boris-johnson-have/ https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/08/01/how-many-children-does... "unconfirmed" child
- rwmj 5y ago
  This is a peculiarity of the current administration made up of people who thought Brexit was a good idea. All the grandees of the Conservative party were thrown out of the party a couple of years ago.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    This could well be the "new normal".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- truculent 5y ago
  OP’s suggestion is that Britain is more meritocratic than the USA, so I think your point can coexist with theirs.
- secondcoming 5y ago
  How is running for election, and then being elected, considered 'failing upwards'?
  - dkdbejwi383 5y ago
    Uncle Rupert doesn’t let his favourite nieces and nephews fall too far.
atomashpolskiy 5y ago
It's like one of the most wide-known facts about Warren Buffet is that he likes fast food and coke and even bought himself a diner. Or that Bill Gates drinks (or drank at some point) at least one can of coke a day. So cute, so down to earth! See, they're just like us!
lostmsu 5y ago
Frankly, this seems like a weird argument. By analogy, should not all British politicians also only eat food provided by government food stamps?

chrisseaton 5y ago

> The US has a sort of Andy Warhol style egalitarianism of "a coke is a coke and rich and poor alike drink it" going on but not much else. I think this is the key bit and that's really well put.

WalterBright 5y ago
Water is far better for you than a coke any day.

WalterBright 5y ago

That's because London has a very good tube system, such is completely absent in the US. Except maybe NYC. Attributing preference for the tube to some sort of moral humility is a stretch.

Brakenshire 5y ago
The quality of the Tube and the bus system is dependent on rich and poor people using it though, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

smcl 5y ago

> In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school Whoever wrote this is being a little disingenuous. The pipeline from a handful of private schools to the upper echelons of power (via Oxbridge) in the UK is very well known. The fact that the press wouldn't let the PM away with sending their kids to Eton or Harrow doesn't really change this or make the country more meritocratic, it just means we all pretend they're just like the rest of us for a few years.

sharikous 5y ago
Of course. But it is a significant data point in describing the culture divide between the UK and the US. The whole topic deserves an entire book. Even then, the answer "who is the most meritocratic" won't receive a straight answer. The point that British culture does not allow the prime minister to send their children to fancy schools is a meaningful one to make, among many others. It puts the UK closer to the Scandinavian/Northern European countries and the USA closer to less-than-democratic countries (MENA, Africa, Russia, China) on this particular axis.
- smcl 5y ago
  It’s certainly an interesting wee fact but I don’t think it says anything about whether the UK should be considered more or less meritocratic. I think it’s a fig leaf where we get to pretend we are a super progressive country that is smashing its class system, while doing very little to that effect. To be clear - I don’t care where David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris et al send their kids to school. I care that such schools exist effectively to officially stamp you as a member of the upper class. Edit: I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m annoyed with you or the original commenter! I have some strong feelings about this but I am aware that you didn’t create this system, that you are not standing up for it or trying to protect it. We’re just having a discussion and as you say it really deserves an entire book

pjc50 5y ago

If Britain were meritocratic the cabinet wouldn't be made out of people who've failed upwards. > In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school. They are afforded some privacy, but all of Boris Johnson's "legitimate" children went to private schools as far as I can tell. https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1141456/Boris-johnson-kids-daughter-Lara-lettice-johnson-Bedales-boarding-school https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1141456/Boris-johnso... (sorry it's the sexpress, but this is fundamentally prurient) https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/08/01/how-many-children-does-boris-johnson-have/ https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/08/01/how-many-children-does... "unconfirmed" child

rwmj 5y ago
This is a peculiarity of the current administration made up of people who thought Brexit was a good idea. All the grandees of the Conservative party were thrown out of the party a couple of years ago.
- pjc50 5y ago
  This could well be the "new normal".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
truculent 5y ago
OP’s suggestion is that Britain is more meritocratic than the USA, so I think your point can coexist with theirs.
secondcoming 5y ago
How is running for election, and then being elected, considered 'failing upwards'?
- dkdbejwi383 5y ago
  Uncle Rupert doesn’t let his favourite nieces and nephews fall too far.

atomashpolskiy 5y ago

It's like one of the most wide-known facts about Warren Buffet is that he likes fast food and coke and even bought himself a diner. Or that Bill Gates drinks (or drank at some point) at least one can of coke a day. So cute, so down to earth! See, they're just like us!

lostmsu 5y ago

Frankly, this seems like a weird argument. By analogy, should not all British politicians also only eat food provided by government food stamps?