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The sole study you quote: > Funding - Moscow City Health Department, Russian Direct Investment Fund, and Sberbank. I seriously can't tell if you are trolling

The sole study you quote: > Funding - Moscow City Health Department, Russian Direct Investment Fund, and Sberbank. I seriously can't tell if you are trolling at this point. > The phase-III trials weren't even conducted in China. You are confusing the Russia Trial with the Chinese one. I'm sure both have studies that were paid for by the state, analyzing data GIVEN TO THEM by the state. Both the Chinese and Russian vaccines refuse to release raw patient data. They think this shell game with the Lancet and others will fool people...maybe they are right. Maybe it will. > Gao Fu's statements were not published, even in Chinese. He said exactly what the Ambassador continues to say, the vaccines need to be made more efficient. As I proved, the entire world knows this to be true. As said, you are arguing a point the Chinese government themselves are no longer arguing, which is that their vaccine is as effective as western alternatives. > But there's actually hard data on the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines, collected outside of China and published in solid journals outside China, so we don't have to parse the words of a Chinese health official. You are right: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715 > China’s CoronaVac was 66% effective in preventing Covid among fully vaccinated adults, compared with 93% or the jab made by Pfizer and its partner BioNTech SE. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-08/china-made-vaccine-found-inferior-to-pfizer-shot-in-chile-study https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-08/china-mad... But China's internal numbers were > 90%. > A lot of people have the same general sense that you've expressed that there's no data Chinese vaccines, or that the data's being concealed, despite the fact that this is quite provably not the case Well, lol. So all the people in SE Asia, the Middle East, South America, etc. that are tracking down western shots as boosters, they are all misguided? This is part of some worldwide conspiracy to "discredit" China? They are all confused? Keep in mind we are left to speculate about this only because we don't actually have raw data to either prove or disprove efficacy. What we do have is example after example of countries that either have Chinese vaccine and don't use it, or are tracking down alternatives after getting destroyed by variants only 6 months later. > This impression is widespread because of really terrible reporting like the NY Times article I linked earlier. You actually never refuted anything about any of the articles I posted, you just causally refer to them as bad. I guess this works in some circles, not here. And you never answer my question. Your name is Greek, China invests a lot in Greece. Are you employed either directly or indirectly by the Chinese government? That's not an accusation btw (kinda gives the game away that you took it as such), i'm just trying to figure out why someone would spend so much time defending authoritarian regimes.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
> I'm sure both have studies that were paid for by the state, analyzing data GIVEN TO THEM by the state. How many times do I have to repeat that the Sinovac and Sinopharm phase-III trials were conducted outside of China, by institutions that are unrelated to the Chinese government? It's not even possible to conduct a phase-III SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial in China, because there is basically zero community spread. If the virus isn't spreading naturally, the only way to conduct a trial is to do a challenge study, and that's widely considered unethical. > Both the Chinese and Russian vaccines refuse to release raw patient data. They think this shell game with the Lancet and others will fool people...maybe they are right. Are you accusing the various institutes around the world that conducted studies on the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines from withholding data? What are you basing these allegations on? > But China's internal numbers were > 90%. I don't know what you're trying to refer to here. This is what the Chilean Health Ministry found for the Sinovac vaccine:[1] > In the fully immunized group, the estimated adjusted vaccine effectiveness was 65.9% (95% CI, 65.2 to 66.6) for the prevention of Covid-19 and 87.5% (95% CI, 86.7 to 88.2) for the prevention of hospitalization, 90.3% (95% CI, 89.1 to 91.4) for the prevention of ICU admission, and 86.3% (95% CI, 84.5 to 87.9) for the prevention of Covid-19–related death A vaccine that reduces chance of hospitalization or death by a factor of 10 is a Godsend. This is the vaccine that the NY Times was attacking in the article I linked earlier. > Keep in mind we are left to speculate about this only because we don't actually have raw data to either prove or disprove efficacy. We do. It's right there in the Chilean study, in addition to several other peer-reviewed studies published in prestigious medical journals. I don't know what more you want. Do you want to know the names of the patients who enrolled in the studies? > So all the people in SE Asia, the Middle East, South America, etc. that are tracking down western shots as boosters, they are all misguided? By "Western shots," you mean two specific vaccines using mRNA technology, which everyone acknowledges have the highest efficacy. You're not referring to the other widely used "Western vaccines," developed by AstraZeneca and J&J, which have similar efficacy to the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines. Yes, most people in the world, if they had a choice, would pick whichever vaccine had the highest efficacy. That's not the world we live in, unfortunately. The mRNA vaccines are currently almost impossible to obtain outside of the developed world. Sinovac and Sinopharm have already exported hundreds of millions of doses around the world. > What we do have is example after example of countries that either have Chinese vaccine and don't use it, or are tracking down alternatives after getting destroyed by variants only 6 months later. The US is battling a horrifying surge in cases and deaths. I don't expect to see a NY Times article titled, "They Relied on American Vaccines. Now They're Battling Outbreaks." Imagine an article with that title, which led with a bunch of anecdotes about breakthrough infections and deaths, and which only mentioned near the end that actual scientific studies show that the vaccines are highly effective. I think whatever editor approved such an article about the US would get fired within short order for pushing anti-vax propaganda. > Your name is Greek, China invests a lot in Greece. Are you employed either directly or indirectly by the Chinese government? I live in a barrel in the Athenian marketplace. 1. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

> I'm sure both have studies that were paid for by the state, analyzing data GIVEN TO THEM by the state. How many times do I have to repeat that the Sinovac and Sinopharm phase-III trials were conducted outside of China, by institutions that are unrelated to the Chinese government? It's not even possible to conduct a phase-III SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial in China, because there is basically zero community spread. If the virus isn't spreading naturally, the only way to conduct a trial is to do a challenge study, and that's widely considered unethical. > Both the Chinese and Russian vaccines refuse to release raw patient data. They think this shell game with the Lancet and others will fool people...maybe they are right. Are you accusing the various institutes around the world that conducted studies on the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines from withholding data? What are you basing these allegations on? > But China's internal numbers were > 90%. I don't know what you're trying to refer to here. This is what the Chilean Health Ministry found for the Sinovac vaccine:[1] > In the fully immunized group, the estimated adjusted vaccine effectiveness was 65.9% (95% CI, 65.2 to 66.6) for the prevention of Covid-19 and 87.5% (95% CI, 86.7 to 88.2) for the prevention of hospitalization, 90.3% (95% CI, 89.1 to 91.4) for the prevention of ICU admission, and 86.3% (95% CI, 84.5 to 87.9) for the prevention of Covid-19–related death A vaccine that reduces chance of hospitalization or death by a factor of 10 is a Godsend. This is the vaccine that the NY Times was attacking in the article I linked earlier. > Keep in mind we are left to speculate about this only because we don't actually have raw data to either prove or disprove efficacy. We do. It's right there in the Chilean study, in addition to several other peer-reviewed studies published in prestigious medical journals. I don't know what more you want. Do you want to know the names of the patients who enrolled in the studies? > So all the people in SE Asia, the Middle East, South America, etc. that are tracking down western shots as boosters, they are all misguided? By "Western shots," you mean two specific vaccines using mRNA technology, which everyone acknowledges have the highest efficacy. You're not referring to the other widely used "Western vaccines," developed by AstraZeneca and J&J, which have similar efficacy to the Sinovac and Sinopharm vaccines. Yes, most people in the world, if they had a choice, would pick whichever vaccine had the highest efficacy. That's not the world we live in, unfortunately. The mRNA vaccines are currently almost impossible to obtain outside of the developed world. Sinovac and Sinopharm have already exported hundreds of millions of doses around the world. > What we do have is example after example of countries that either have Chinese vaccine and don't use it, or are tracking down alternatives after getting destroyed by variants only 6 months later. The US is battling a horrifying surge in cases and deaths. I don't expect to see a NY Times article titled, "They Relied on American Vaccines. Now They're Battling Outbreaks." Imagine an article with that title, which led with a bunch of anecdotes about breakthrough infections and deaths, and which only mentioned near the end that actual scientific studies show that the vaccines are highly effective. I think whatever editor approved such an article about the US would get fired within short order for pushing anti-vax propaganda. > Your name is Greek, China invests a lot in Greece. Are you employed either directly or indirectly by the Chinese government? I live in a barrel in the Athenian marketplace. 1. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715