3 ms·

That will likely cause an increase in coal usage for power generation.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Which is why it’s important to continue to push for coal generator retirements and demolition [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], so those plants can’t be restarted. Because given the chance, people would, consequences be damned. [1] https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/07/31/tva-coal-fired-power-plant-demolition-move-cleaner-energy/5441989001/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/07/31/tva-c... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSNBn47m7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSNBn47m7E [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXwx7oMXmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXwx7oMXmg [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D02xWn-JsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D02xWn-JsQ [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYaF6ERQKyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYaF6ERQKyM
- varjag 5y ago
  While particulate pollution from coal is pretty horrible, natural gas have no advantage when CO2 pollution is concerned. EDIT: apparently there's still a substantial advantage on CO2 too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jsnell 5y ago
    I don't believe that's true. Natural has produces about half the CO2 for the same amount of energy when compared to coal. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - the8472 5y ago
    It's basic chemistry. Natural gas consists of short hydrocarbons, i.e. hydrogen on those carbon backbones. Coal is mostly carbon.
epistasis 5y ago
Maybe, but if it does, it's only because of corruption. Coal is really economically uncompetitive nearly everywhere. The only reason that it's still on the grid at all is usually some really bad long-term deals made in the past, or corrupt utility execs. Utilities continue to use coal even when it loses them money: https://blog.ucsusa.org/joseph-daniel/new-ucs-research-utilities-uneconomic-coal-use-is-being-called-out-in-25-states/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/joseph-daniel/new-ucs-research-utili... Utilities also tend to use long out-of-date costs when doing they planning, and the planning modes are often not available for inspection to regulators or the rate payers.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  This is an accurate representation of the situation. Ratepayers are locked into paying for economically unfavorable coal fired plants due to entrenched interests and/or poor long term contracts/capital market decisions, even when moving to a mix of nat gas, renewables, and batteries (or possibly some transmission and/or interconnects with neighboring electrical grids) would be cheaper. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959719 https://insideclimatenews.org/news/03082021/coal-creek-plant-north-dakota-minnesota-utilities-approval/ https://insideclimatenews.org/news/03082021/coal-creek-plant... https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2019/10/new-report-shows-electric-utilities-are-operating-uneconomic-coal-plants-us-energy https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2019/10/new-report-shows... https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/utilities-running-uneconomic-coal-plants-cost-consumers-35-billion-from-2015-2017/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/uti... https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/80-Of-US-Coal-Plants-Are-Uneconomic-As-Renewables-Costs-Drop.html https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/80-Of-US-...
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Thanks for the additional links supporting this, something that I though would be well known by the HN community as it's a very interesting technology change, I was quite surprised to be downvoted to quickly. Perhaps my use of the word "corruption" comes across as too strong. But for government-granted monopolies, the bias shown by utility planning in recent years can only be described by such a word. There's an inexplicable allegiance to technologies that cost utilities more than renewables and storage, and given that renewables would let utilities charge for lots of transmission upgrades that are a great source of profits, their behavior is really difficult to explain at all without corruption being a motivation. It can't be explained by seeking profit for investors.

Which is why it’s important to continue to push for coal generator retirements and demolition [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], so those plants can’t be restarted. Because given the chance, people would, consequences be damned. [1] https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/07/31/tva-coal-fired-power-plant-demolition-move-cleaner-energy/5441989001/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2021/07/31/tva-c... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSNBn47m7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSNBn47m7E [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXwx7oMXmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXwx7oMXmg [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D02xWn-JsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D02xWn-JsQ [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYaF6ERQKyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYaF6ERQKyM

varjag 5y ago
While particulate pollution from coal is pretty horrible, natural gas have no advantage when CO2 pollution is concerned. EDIT: apparently there's still a substantial advantage on CO2 too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jsnell 5y ago
  I don't believe that's true. Natural has produces about half the CO2 for the same amount of energy when compared to coal. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- the8472 5y ago
  It's basic chemistry. Natural gas consists of short hydrocarbons, i.e. hydrogen on those carbon backbones. Coal is mostly carbon.

epistasis 5y ago

Maybe, but if it does, it's only because of corruption. Coal is really economically uncompetitive nearly everywhere. The only reason that it's still on the grid at all is usually some really bad long-term deals made in the past, or corrupt utility execs. Utilities continue to use coal even when it loses them money: https://blog.ucsusa.org/joseph-daniel/new-ucs-research-utilities-uneconomic-coal-use-is-being-called-out-in-25-states/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/joseph-daniel/new-ucs-research-utili... Utilities also tend to use long out-of-date costs when doing they planning, and the planning modes are often not available for inspection to regulators or the rate payers.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
This is an accurate representation of the situation. Ratepayers are locked into paying for economically unfavorable coal fired plants due to entrenched interests and/or poor long term contracts/capital market decisions, even when moving to a mix of nat gas, renewables, and batteries (or possibly some transmission and/or interconnects with neighboring electrical grids) would be cheaper. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27959719 https://insideclimatenews.org/news/03082021/coal-creek-plant-north-dakota-minnesota-utilities-approval/ https://insideclimatenews.org/news/03082021/coal-creek-plant... https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2019/10/new-report-shows-electric-utilities-are-operating-uneconomic-coal-plants-us-energy https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2019/10/new-report-shows... https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/utilities-running-uneconomic-coal-plants-cost-consumers-35-billion-from-2015-2017/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/12/03/uti... https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/80-Of-US-Coal-Plants-Are-Uneconomic-As-Renewables-Costs-Drop.html https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/80-Of-US-...
- epistasis 5y ago
  Thanks for the additional links supporting this, something that I though would be well known by the HN community as it's a very interesting technology change, I was quite surprised to be downvoted to quickly. Perhaps my use of the word "corruption" comes across as too strong. But for government-granted monopolies, the bias shown by utility planning in recent years can only be described by such a word. There's an inexplicable allegiance to technologies that cost utilities more than renewables and storage, and given that renewables would let utilities charge for lots of transmission upgrades that are a great source of profits, their behavior is really difficult to explain at all without corruption being a motivation. It can't be explained by seeking profit for investors.