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> I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem Me too. I told my wife today that I'll be looking at a feature phone as I'm not sure I ca

> I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem Me too. I told my wife today that I'll be looking at a feature phone as I'm not sure I can be bothered with jumping through all the hoops required to de-Google an Android phone. I remember a time before mobile phones, I was just fine without one - smartphones aren't that good, just convenient.

hnlmorg 5y ago
It's good that you're principled enough to do that but you guys will be rounding errors in Apple's revenue. Most people don't even know about this and those that do, most wont care. Even of those who do know and do care, most aren't motivated enough to change their habits beyond writing a few angry words on a forum Apple are never going to read anyway. Those that do change their buying habits, yourselves, are by far in the minority. And while you might have some influence over what tech your friends, family and significant other might buy, let's be completely honest, it's not going to be enough to sway them into using an unbranded phone over a feature that they themselves likely don't care much about but happily assume the role of outrage when around you because we are generally social animals. This is companies consistently get away with pissing off their customers. It's the same reason politicians get away with pissing off their electorate. Even in a crowded space people seldom get outraged enough to change their buying habits. But in an industry where the options are already limited (Android or iOS) and where people only buy products, at most, once every two years...? Sorry but literally nobody outside your social circle will notice if you stopped buying Apple products. I get this is a depressing response and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't follow through with your threat. But I hear this threat posted unironically a lot and it seems to me that people think they have the power to invoke change simply by moaning on a few message boards or buying a competitors products for a couple of years (then that competitor does something to earn our outrage and we're back to the first company again). But real change takes effort. A lot of effort. More effort than most are willing to commit. Hence why the GP rightfully commented that in a months time people will have moved on to their next outrage.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  What you are saying isn't that depressing, I think it makes a lot of sense. But perceived abuses do take time for people to eventually take action that can actually effect companies/states bottom lines. I can imagine at some point a 0day targeting iOS devices that when they connect to a public wifi network with a compromised router, it distributes CP malware/botnet on to their device and then everyone else that connects to that device in the future (muddying the waters). Similar actions could also be taken against other companies and state entities systems. And these actions don't need to rely on most of the population to take them. The more these "kill chain" like systems become automated and cheap to deploy, the more incentive individuals will have to pursue these types of attacks.
- rmdashrfstar 5y ago
  This is a wonderful dose of realism, mixed with slightly too much cynicism.
- Popegaf 5y ago
  I think the problem with your response is that you aren't proposing anything better. It just sounds like you're saying "give in, it doesn't make a difference anyway". That capitulating, "crabs in a barrel" attitude is why things are the way they are. The majority just sits around waiting for something to happen and for some miracle to happen; for a leader to show up, galvanize the masses to change their ways and save the day. At the same time you don't believe that will ever happen, so you stay complacent, non-active and immobile (physically and mentally). Stop preaching futility and do something positive. Try and be the positive change you want to see. Just because you've given up doesn't mean you have to try and convince somebody else to give up. You're part of the problem.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    > I think the problem with your response is that you aren't proposing anything better. That's because I honestly can't think of anything better. However that doesn't make my response invalid. > The majority just sits around waiting for something to happen and for some miracle to happen; for a leader to show up, galvanize the masses to change their ways and save the day. At the same time you don't believe that will ever happen, so you stay complacent, non-active and immobile (physically and mentally). I think the issue is more that most people are too busy with their own lives to give a crap about a theoretical problem that doesn't visibly and directly affect them. We've head leaders before and it didn't change people's attitudes. If Snowden couldn't influence people's behaviours then what chance does a few random posts on a niche message board have? > Stop preaching futility and do something positive. Try and be the positive change you want to see. Just because you've given up doesn't mean you have to try and convince somebody else to give up. You're part of the problem. That's a bit harsh. I'm just as free to post my views are you are to post yours. And if you can't be arsed to get off your seat and campaign for real change then you're in no position to delegate that responsibility onto me. Also I think you misunderstand the point of my post. I'm not trying to talk people out of action. In fact I've explicitly stated otherwise when I said "It's good that you're principled enough" and "I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't follow through with your threat". I'm just expressing my expectations about the futility of it all. A futile action can still give ourselves comfort that we've done the right thing even if we know it will make no wider change: like how I always vote in each election despite my constituency being so overwhelmingly in favour of the opposition that my vote is literally meaningless. If yourself switching manufacturer brings yourself comfort that you've done the right thing then that's reason enough to change. But the pragmatic truth of the matter is that it'll take more than that to influence a company as large and successful as Apple.
xattt 5y ago
Are you in North America? Which feature phone would you suggest? The Nokia 3310 was likely the only phone I was considering, but it’s ancient and 3G and doesn’t seem very future proof.
- pelagicAustral 5y ago
  Nokia 8110 4G
- Reason077 5y ago
  The Nokia 3310 does not support 3G. It’s a 2G (GSM or TDMA) device.
  - wott 5y ago
    The 2017 edition exists in 2G, 3G and even 4G versions.
    - Reason077 5y ago
      Oh, I’d forgotten that they made a new phone with the same model number in 2017. Even Nokia’s website seems confused about it because it claims the 2017 3310 is a 2G (“GSM: 900/1800 MHz“) device. That can’t be true of even a low-end 2017 device. It wouldn’t even work on many modern networks without at least having 3G!
cylde_frog 5y ago
I made the switch a couple months ago and its harder than you think. There is a lot of convenience you take for granted in the smartphone age.
- dmitryminkovsky 5y ago
  What did you switch to?
  - cylde_frog 5y ago
    A nokia dumbphone
    - yagya 5y ago
      With at least a billion baseband exploits. Smartphones are bad, but switching back to feature phones is arguably worse in these regards.
- brigandish 5y ago
  Do you remember a time when you had to make a plan with a friend to meet at a specific place at a specific time and if one of you wasn't there or had a last minute problem there was probably no way to contact the other person? That was annoying, true. I also refused to get a mobile phone for years, much to the chagrin of my girlfriend(s). It meant I used to come home to an answering machine full of messages and feel much more loved than I ever have with the immediate drip feed of messages I get now. I wonder, what will I really miss that a book and a dumbphone won't be able to replace in my life? Perhaps the maps.
mtreis86 5y ago
Pixel phone running GrapheneOS, you'd have to jump through hoops to get google back on the thing.
- brigandish 5y ago
  I’ll give it a look, thanks.
jtbayly 5y ago
I suspect it might be more effective to go to an Apple store and attempt to return your iphone and iPad (though probably they are outside of return windows.) I’m seriously considering doing that. Make it painful for the local staff by demanding a refund. Don’t take no for an answer for quite some time. Explain that they just broke the product with a remote update that you had no choice in, so thats why you’re only returning it now. When they ask how it broke explain that they started scanning all your content, thereby claiming it as their own. If they want to own the phone, then they need to buy it back. Etc.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  > Explain that they just broke the product with a remote update that you had no choice in... Except when you turned on the phone, you agreed to automatic updates. Contract law isn't on your side.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    No, I didn't agree to automatic updates by turning it on. In fact, I don't have automatic updates turned on. What happened is that I updated based on what Apple claimed the update did, but they were lying. Contract law would seem to be on my side in such a case.
arvinsim 5y ago
The thing is, people who are young enough to not live in the time without mobile phones will have no recourse.
- brigandish 5y ago
  Quite possibly true. You reminded me of this, which did give me a chuckle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg Watching it again I wondered, would they even know what a dial tone is? (or was:)
croutonwagon 5y ago
Same. I’m strongly considering donating to CalyxOS as they are a nonprofit. The biggest reason I dumped Android years ago (the last Android phone I had was a galaxy nexus or nexus one) was because of the lengthy process to reflash a phone with something like aosp or (at the time) cyanogen. Each model was different. Ultimately I decided I didn’t have time for that and battery life was atrocious. Like I had batteries stashed all over the place. I figure something like CalyxOS seems to have a good feedback and reputation here. And a donation helps them and allows me to bypass hours of tinkering on xd forums. Ultimately I think I’m locked in iOS for now as my phone is dual sim and the esim is a company provided line. So I will either have to revert to carrying two devices again or just maintain the calyx/pixel as my bailout device in case my job suddenly my vanishes (like the current device I have in safe keeping)

hnlmorg 5y ago

It's good that you're principled enough to do that but you guys will be rounding errors in Apple's revenue. Most people don't even know about this and those that do, most wont care. Even of those who do know and do care, most aren't motivated enough to change their habits beyond writing a few angry words on a forum Apple are never going to read anyway. Those that do change their buying habits, yourselves, are by far in the minority. And while you might have some influence over what tech your friends, family and significant other might buy, let's be completely honest, it's not going to be enough to sway them into using an unbranded phone over a feature that they themselves likely don't care much about but happily assume the role of outrage when around you because we are generally social animals. This is companies consistently get away with pissing off their customers. It's the same reason politicians get away with pissing off their electorate. Even in a crowded space people seldom get outraged enough to change their buying habits. But in an industry where the options are already limited (Android or iOS) and where people only buy products, at most, once every two years...? Sorry but literally nobody outside your social circle will notice if you stopped buying Apple products. I get this is a depressing response and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't follow through with your threat. But I hear this threat posted unironically a lot and it seems to me that people think they have the power to invoke change simply by moaning on a few message boards or buying a competitors products for a couple of years (then that competitor does something to earn our outrage and we're back to the first company again). But real change takes effort. A lot of effort. More effort than most are willing to commit. Hence why the GP rightfully commented that in a months time people will have moved on to their next outrage.

cinquemb 5y ago
What you are saying isn't that depressing, I think it makes a lot of sense. But perceived abuses do take time for people to eventually take action that can actually effect companies/states bottom lines. I can imagine at some point a 0day targeting iOS devices that when they connect to a public wifi network with a compromised router, it distributes CP malware/botnet on to their device and then everyone else that connects to that device in the future (muddying the waters). Similar actions could also be taken against other companies and state entities systems. And these actions don't need to rely on most of the population to take them. The more these "kill chain" like systems become automated and cheap to deploy, the more incentive individuals will have to pursue these types of attacks.
rmdashrfstar 5y ago
This is a wonderful dose of realism, mixed with slightly too much cynicism.
Popegaf 5y ago
I think the problem with your response is that you aren't proposing anything better. It just sounds like you're saying "give in, it doesn't make a difference anyway". That capitulating, "crabs in a barrel" attitude is why things are the way they are. The majority just sits around waiting for something to happen and for some miracle to happen; for a leader to show up, galvanize the masses to change their ways and save the day. At the same time you don't believe that will ever happen, so you stay complacent, non-active and immobile (physically and mentally). Stop preaching futility and do something positive. Try and be the positive change you want to see. Just because you've given up doesn't mean you have to try and convince somebody else to give up. You're part of the problem.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  > I think the problem with your response is that you aren't proposing anything better. That's because I honestly can't think of anything better. However that doesn't make my response invalid. > The majority just sits around waiting for something to happen and for some miracle to happen; for a leader to show up, galvanize the masses to change their ways and save the day. At the same time you don't believe that will ever happen, so you stay complacent, non-active and immobile (physically and mentally). I think the issue is more that most people are too busy with their own lives to give a crap about a theoretical problem that doesn't visibly and directly affect them. We've head leaders before and it didn't change people's attitudes. If Snowden couldn't influence people's behaviours then what chance does a few random posts on a niche message board have? > Stop preaching futility and do something positive. Try and be the positive change you want to see. Just because you've given up doesn't mean you have to try and convince somebody else to give up. You're part of the problem. That's a bit harsh. I'm just as free to post my views are you are to post yours. And if you can't be arsed to get off your seat and campaign for real change then you're in no position to delegate that responsibility onto me. Also I think you misunderstand the point of my post. I'm not trying to talk people out of action. In fact I've explicitly stated otherwise when I said "It's good that you're principled enough" and "I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't follow through with your threat". I'm just expressing my expectations about the futility of it all. A futile action can still give ourselves comfort that we've done the right thing even if we know it will make no wider change: like how I always vote in each election despite my constituency being so overwhelmingly in favour of the opposition that my vote is literally meaningless. If yourself switching manufacturer brings yourself comfort that you've done the right thing then that's reason enough to change. But the pragmatic truth of the matter is that it'll take more than that to influence a company as large and successful as Apple.

xattt 5y ago

Are you in North America? Which feature phone would you suggest? The Nokia 3310 was likely the only phone I was considering, but it’s ancient and 3G and doesn’t seem very future proof.

pelagicAustral 5y ago
Nokia 8110 4G
Reason077 5y ago
The Nokia 3310 does not support 3G. It’s a 2G (GSM or TDMA) device.
- wott 5y ago
  The 2017 edition exists in 2G, 3G and even 4G versions.
  - Reason077 5y ago
    Oh, I’d forgotten that they made a new phone with the same model number in 2017. Even Nokia’s website seems confused about it because it claims the 2017 3310 is a 2G (“GSM: 900/1800 MHz“) device. That can’t be true of even a low-end 2017 device. It wouldn’t even work on many modern networks without at least having 3G!

cylde_frog 5y ago

I made the switch a couple months ago and its harder than you think. There is a lot of convenience you take for granted in the smartphone age.

dmitryminkovsky 5y ago
What did you switch to?
- cylde_frog 5y ago
  A nokia dumbphone
  - yagya 5y ago
    With at least a billion baseband exploits. Smartphones are bad, but switching back to feature phones is arguably worse in these regards.
brigandish 5y ago
Do you remember a time when you had to make a plan with a friend to meet at a specific place at a specific time and if one of you wasn't there or had a last minute problem there was probably no way to contact the other person? That was annoying, true. I also refused to get a mobile phone for years, much to the chagrin of my girlfriend(s). It meant I used to come home to an answering machine full of messages and feel much more loved than I ever have with the immediate drip feed of messages I get now. I wonder, what will I really miss that a book and a dumbphone won't be able to replace in my life? Perhaps the maps.

mtreis86 5y ago

Pixel phone running GrapheneOS, you'd have to jump through hoops to get google back on the thing.

brigandish 5y ago
I’ll give it a look, thanks.

jtbayly 5y ago

I suspect it might be more effective to go to an Apple store and attempt to return your iphone and iPad (though probably they are outside of return windows.) I’m seriously considering doing that. Make it painful for the local staff by demanding a refund. Don’t take no for an answer for quite some time. Explain that they just broke the product with a remote update that you had no choice in, so thats why you’re only returning it now. When they ask how it broke explain that they started scanning all your content, thereby claiming it as their own. If they want to own the phone, then they need to buy it back. Etc.

colejohnson66 5y ago
> Explain that they just broke the product with a remote update that you had no choice in... Except when you turned on the phone, you agreed to automatic updates. Contract law isn't on your side.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  No, I didn't agree to automatic updates by turning it on. In fact, I don't have automatic updates turned on. What happened is that I updated based on what Apple claimed the update did, but they were lying. Contract law would seem to be on my side in such a case.

arvinsim 5y ago

The thing is, people who are young enough to not live in the time without mobile phones will have no recourse.

brigandish 5y ago
Quite possibly true. You reminded me of this, which did give me a chuckle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg Watching it again I wondered, would they even know what a dial tone is? (or was:)

croutonwagon 5y ago

Same. I’m strongly considering donating to CalyxOS as they are a nonprofit. The biggest reason I dumped Android years ago (the last Android phone I had was a galaxy nexus or nexus one) was because of the lengthy process to reflash a phone with something like aosp or (at the time) cyanogen. Each model was different. Ultimately I decided I didn’t have time for that and battery life was atrocious. Like I had batteries stashed all over the place. I figure something like CalyxOS seems to have a good feedback and reputation here. And a donation helps them and allows me to bypass hours of tinkering on xd forums. Ultimately I think I’m locked in iOS for now as my phone is dual sim and the esim is a company provided line. So I will either have to revert to carrying two devices again or just maintain the calyx/pixel as my bailout device in case my job suddenly my vanishes (like the current device I have in safe keeping)