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> nobody even thought of enforcing it That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago, and despite the law having been repel

> nobody even thought of enforcing it That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago, and despite the law having been repelled, some variant of it is still enforced in many jobs. In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). > the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles Context for outsider readers: in the french context, a "cité" has come to mean overpopulated suburban area where the government parks all the undesirables: immigrants, muslims... There are some white people in the cités but usually they're not french (or their parents were not when they moved in). Especially since Sarkozy, there's been a growing tendency in mainstream media and far-right propaganda to designate these neighborhoods as lawless places out of which nothing good can come, and where women are supposedly more oppressed than in the rest of our deeply sexist french society. I cannot say anyone's freedom is "the same" as someone else, because we have different cultural backgrounds and aspirations. What i can say is that patriarchy is very much alive all across France. So i'm not saying there's no codes in regards to how a woman "should" behave in a popular district. However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Also, you may be surprised how women dress in popular districts. It's not all niqabs, you know. Of course every district has a different culture and tolerance in this regard, but i can tell you some women dress just as "sexy" as in big cities like Marseille or Toulouse. Of course, strong independent women from popular districts is never what the media will portray, unless it's intended as a full-blown contrast to their surroundings.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago
> That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago ??? The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it until 2013 when it was abolished. Please provide me one case where the law was applied. > In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. > However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Let me give you the point of view of someone who i) knows well the cités and ii) knows very, very well the "bourgeois" population of Versailles (as you call it). You seem to be French so you may have actually gone in a cité. I recommend La Courneuve which I know well , or Epinay. The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. Now have a look at the Versailles high school Hoche. In the top 5 schools in France, the essence of "bourgeoisie". Have a look at how the people there behave and how diverse they are. Mostly white, but also Asian and Indian. If you knew that population a bit more you could see how they behave - and they behave perfectly, surprisingly especially towards minorities. But to know that you have to actually know these people. And also know people from the cités, closely.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it (...) The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. You're correct. My phrasing suggested that this law was enforced, when in fact i meant that the moralistic content of the law were applied, despite most people not even knowing about the law. You seem to suggest dress control is not specifically a gendered thing, however i've been on more than one job where "casual" dressing was permitted for all but that did not include trousers for women, nor did it dispense them from wearing makeup. > The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. And what would that be? I'm not doubting there's a bunch of social expectations, but i sincerely doubt they're greater in popular districts than anywhere else. For example, when you refer to "the rules of the muslim population", what would that be? Rules made up by a bigger brother who's never read any religious text? A way of life suggested by the imam? I doubt your case, not because i fundamentally disagree that women's lives are being controlled, but because there is a very racist emphasis on "muslims" trying to control women, which is completely disconnected from reality of french society where all women are being controlled. First, because as i said previously, it's an excuse made up to put sexism from other cultures/classes under the carpet. Second, because most of the accusations of sexism against the muslim community are baseless. As an example of that, there is a weird fascination in france against the muslim veil (while a christian veil never raised any question). However, nowhere in the Quran is written that a woman must wear the veil, and most muslims are aware of that (atheists and christians, less so). Some muslim parents force their daughter to wear a veil, like some christian parents force theirs to wear a cross around the neck. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but its far from the "danger to our civilization" that the far-right makes it appear to be. I can't say i've never met women who were under social pressure from their neighborhood. And some of them were muslims from popular districts. But i can't say that scheme is typical of muslim-majority popular districts, as i've heard exactly the same stories/complaints from women of different classes and cultures. I'm not sure where this conversation is going, or why you would want to reconcile me with the higher classes who are the sociopaths destroying our planet and making sure it's uninhabitable for everyone, while the rest of us struggle for basic survival/services...
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

> That's definitely not true. It was enforced in most places until a few decades ago ??? The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it until 2013 when it was abolished. Please provide me one case where the law was applied. > In big IT consulting firms just as in the sales/services industry, a woman is expected to wear makeup and a female suit (tailleur). The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. > However, contrary to popular (racist) expectations, there may be more leeway for a lower-class non-white woman in france in 2021 than for a daughter of a white bourgeois family from Versailles. Indeed, despite a potential pressure from tradition, a proletarian woman will usually (there are exceptions) be encouraged to study and find a better job than her parents. I've rarely hung out with bourgeois people, but from what i could see they had less to gain, and were more preoccupied with founding a family than anything else. Take it with a grain of salt because that's anecdotal data. Let me give you the point of view of someone who i) knows well the cités and ii) knows very, very well the "bourgeois" population of Versailles (as you call it). You seem to be French so you may have actually gone in a cité. I recommend La Courneuve which I know well , or Epinay. The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. Now have a look at the Versailles high school Hoche. In the top 5 schools in France, the essence of "bourgeoisie". Have a look at how the people there behave and how diverse they are. Mostly white, but also Asian and Indian. If you knew that population a bit more you could see how they behave - and they behave perfectly, surprisingly especially towards minorities. But to know that you have to actually know these people. And also know people from the cités, closely.

southerntofu 5y ago
> The law was from 1800 and nobody really knew about it (...) The same way a man is expected to wear a suit. You're correct. My phrasing suggested that this law was enforced, when in fact i meant that the moralistic content of the law were applied, despite most people not even knowing about the law. You seem to suggest dress control is not specifically a gendered thing, however i've been on more than one job where "casual" dressing was permitted for all but that did not include trousers for women, nor did it dispense them from wearing makeup. > The women I actually know from there are under a TREMENDOUS pressure to adhere to the rules of the Muslim population. And what would that be? I'm not doubting there's a bunch of social expectations, but i sincerely doubt they're greater in popular districts than anywhere else. For example, when you refer to "the rules of the muslim population", what would that be? Rules made up by a bigger brother who's never read any religious text? A way of life suggested by the imam? I doubt your case, not because i fundamentally disagree that women's lives are being controlled, but because there is a very racist emphasis on "muslims" trying to control women, which is completely disconnected from reality of french society where all women are being controlled. First, because as i said previously, it's an excuse made up to put sexism from other cultures/classes under the carpet. Second, because most of the accusations of sexism against the muslim community are baseless. As an example of that, there is a weird fascination in france against the muslim veil (while a christian veil never raised any question). However, nowhere in the Quran is written that a woman must wear the veil, and most muslims are aware of that (atheists and christians, less so). Some muslim parents force their daughter to wear a veil, like some christian parents force theirs to wear a cross around the neck. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but its far from the "danger to our civilization" that the far-right makes it appear to be. I can't say i've never met women who were under social pressure from their neighborhood. And some of them were muslims from popular districts. But i can't say that scheme is typical of muslim-majority popular districts, as i've heard exactly the same stories/complaints from women of different classes and cultures. I'm not sure where this conversation is going, or why you would want to reconcile me with the higher classes who are the sociopaths destroying our planet and making sure it's uninhabitable for everyone, while the rest of us struggle for basic survival/services...
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago