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So, if I understand correctly, the NCMEC provides a bunch of hashes of CSAM for Apple to match. This way Apple doesn’t get exposed to the content of images them

by tcldr 5y ago

So, if I understand correctly, the NCMEC provides a bunch of hashes of CSAM for Apple to match. This way Apple doesn’t get exposed to the content of images themselves? Then Apple will provide a user’s details plus the IDs of matching content. This identifies the direction of travel for any CSAM content? So, now NCMEC and any local NCMEC can provide new hashes and identify – possibly even historically – the epicentre of the distribution of a group of images. Except, if Apple only gets the hashes, what’s to stop a bad actor in a NCMEC from providing non CSAM images to Apple for other purposes? Seems like this technology should be illegal without a warrant. It’s a wire tap.

0xy 5y ago
NCMEC's database already contains non-CSAM. What you suggest is not theoretical, it's reality today. I really think people are missing this point. NCMEC's database is not an infallible, audited and trustworthy source of despicable imagery. It's a mess contributed to by thousands of companies, individuals and police. It's also so intertwined with the FBI that I don't think it's truly correct to call NCMEC independent, given FBI employees work at NCMEC, including on the database. The FBI's involvement is particularly notable here, given their past usage of mass surveillance. This is a truly terrifying precedent.
- tcldr 5y ago
  Wow. Also, many people trust Apple to do ‘the right thing’. But if Apple are trusting NCMEC and their local equivalents to provide valid CSAM hashes, Apple will never know if their technology is being abused, so they can conveniently point the finger elsewhere if it is. I can’t imagine this point has escaped their awareness.
  - nullc 5y ago
    > Also, many people trust Apple to do ‘the right thing’. Well that's silly of them, thats the motto Google switched to after they gave up on the whole not being evil thing. ( https://www.engadget.com/2015-10-02-alphabet-do-the-right-thing.html https://www.engadget.com/2015-10-02-alphabet-do-the-right-th... ) :P
- tpush 5y ago
  > NCMEC's database already contains non-CSAM. How do you know?
- judge2020 5y ago
  > What you suggest is not theoretical, it's reality today. As others have stated, do you have proof? Inside knowledge of this supposed reality? Even some major news publication with no direct evidence would be credible enough to support this statement.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    The database contents are a secret. There are no news articles about it. However, I do know for a fact the database has serious problems (I'm not speculating).
- natdempk 5y ago
  Can you provide more context for this? I could definitely believe this possibility but it’s a big claim to make.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    I know you mean well but people who know how bad the database is also can't tell you how they know, because the database is cloaked in secrecy for obvious reasons. All I can say is that I'm not speculating, I know for a fact the database is as broken as I say it is.

by tcldr 5y ago

0xy 5y ago

NCMEC's database already contains non-CSAM. What you suggest is not theoretical, it's reality today. I really think people are missing this point. NCMEC's database is not an infallible, audited and trustworthy source of despicable imagery. It's a mess contributed to by thousands of companies, individuals and police. It's also so intertwined with the FBI that I don't think it's truly correct to call NCMEC independent, given FBI employees work at NCMEC, including on the database. The FBI's involvement is particularly notable here, given their past usage of mass surveillance. This is a truly terrifying precedent.

tcldr 5y ago
Wow. Also, many people trust Apple to do ‘the right thing’. But if Apple are trusting NCMEC and their local equivalents to provide valid CSAM hashes, Apple will never know if their technology is being abused, so they can conveniently point the finger elsewhere if it is. I can’t imagine this point has escaped their awareness.
- nullc 5y ago
  > Also, many people trust Apple to do ‘the right thing’. Well that's silly of them, thats the motto Google switched to after they gave up on the whole not being evil thing. ( https://www.engadget.com/2015-10-02-alphabet-do-the-right-thing.html https://www.engadget.com/2015-10-02-alphabet-do-the-right-th... ) :P
tpush 5y ago
> NCMEC's database already contains non-CSAM. How do you know?
judge2020 5y ago
> What you suggest is not theoretical, it's reality today. As others have stated, do you have proof? Inside knowledge of this supposed reality? Even some major news publication with no direct evidence would be credible enough to support this statement.
- 0xy 5y ago
  The database contents are a secret. There are no news articles about it. However, I do know for a fact the database has serious problems (I'm not speculating).
natdempk 5y ago
Can you provide more context for this? I could definitely believe this possibility but it’s a big claim to make.
- 0xy 5y ago
  I know you mean well but people who know how bad the database is also can't tell you how they know, because the database is cloaked in secrecy for obvious reasons. All I can say is that I'm not speculating, I know for a fact the database is as broken as I say it is.