15 ms·

Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously, especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greate

by bArray 5y ago

Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously, especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greater good. It can be hard to stand on the side that doesn't immediately appear to be correct. We have already lost so many freedoms for 'national security' and other such blanket terminology. Just be warned, there will be those that unfairly try to cast this as helping the distribution of CP. Expect a headline tomorrow: "Edward Snowden et al Supports Child Porn" - or some other hot take. A few other things: 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. 2. Actively support projects you align with - If you use some open source hardware/software, try to help out (financially or time). 3. Make others aware - Reach out to those around you and inform them, only then they can make an informed choice themselves.

peakaboo 5y ago
I think people need to wise up extreamly quickly to what we are facing here. I cannot overstate the importance of being extreamly sceptical of the motives of tech giants at this point in time.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greater good. Not surprising at all. In Russia, _every_ measure to limit internet freedom was introduced under the pretence of fighting child pornography and extremism. Then, of course, it was used to block the websites of political opponents.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Not only in Russia. It's sad to see a country (in central europe) which puts a guy 8 years in jail for raping children more than 8 years, justifying such invazive software as defence against CP.
- Muromec 5y ago
  It was promotion of suicide before it was extremism and cp
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  No need to look at russia only, what about Germany, one of those "bastions of free speech". Also, wasn't the rational for the crypto ban the same? Either terrorism or Child Porn? If you support E2E you're effectively supporting child porn? https://gigaom.com/2009/06/16/germany-to-vote-on-block-list-aimed-at-stopping-child-porn/ https://gigaom.com/2009/06/16/germany-to-vote-on-block-list-...
  - zajio1am 5y ago
    Does anyone really think of Germany as "bastion of free speech"? It is one of few european countries that still have (actively used) anti-blasphemy laws[1] and laws against insulting foreign leaders[2]. [1] https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/02/27/in-rare-move-germany-fines-atheist-e500-for-violating-blasphemy-law/ https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/02/27/in-rare-move-... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/german-erdogan-insult-case/478437/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/ge...
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      Fun fact, it's also the only place that I know of where you can get fined for calling a German a Nazi.
      - jkaplowitz 5y ago
        In many countries (including the US) there are circumstances where defamation law can create civil or criminal liability for such a claim, but yeah, usually not merely for stating it without certain other things also being true about the situation. Conversely, there are cases in Germany where calling someone a Nazi would not lead to a fine. One very clear example: Person A: [Unambiguously asserts a sincere adherence to Nazi ideology] Person B: Did you hear that, everyone? Person A is a Nazi.
        rjzzleep 5y ago
        I'm not talking about defamation. I can understand why you would infer that. The fine I'm talking about is about "feeling insulted". There doesn't even have to be a third person present. Say someone treats you in a racist way, you call him Nazi, judge can order you to pay 400 Euros(or more depending how damaging he thinks you may have been to his feelings) for hurting his feelings. No need to have a witness prove it either. It's a purely subjective judgement. You calling someone Nazi to shut down someone in public actually seems to work well to shut down public discourse judging from what I'm observing in Germany right now. I don't think those defamation lawsuits go anywhere(even though they should).
sillysaurusx 5y ago
> a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously We're all here to make ourselves feel good saying we Took A Stand. In reality, four weeks from now, do you think anybody will still be talking about it? I made this same mistake. I was pretty convinced that people were taking Copilot seriously, and that there was possibly going to be ramifications for Microsoft. I wasn't particularly looking forward to it, but I rated it as plausible. One stonewall and a few weeks later, here we are. Hardly a word anymore about it. I think if there's going to be any real, long-term change, we have to find a way to combat the real threat: life goes on. (Made me smile to phrase it like that, actually. That wasn't the combat I had in mind...) It's true, though. Ask anyone in a month whether they take this seriously. They'll say yes. And what's it worth? It's all we can do, of course. But that's just another way of saying we're powerless. Like it or not, we aren't in control. And unless we can figure a way to get some measure of control, then what are we doing here, really? Your three bullet points are wonderful, and I agree entirely with them. And it won't change a damn thing. I'm not sure what to do about it.
- dijit 5y ago
  Can’t speak for everybody of course, but I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem and I’m heavily invested (watch, phone, MacBook, Mac Pro, Apple TV). I’ve also been recommending to friends and family to move to droids with microG. The largest concern I have for them is that they’re stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Most people aren’t going to run a droid without google, or Linux on the desktop.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    > I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem Me too. I told my wife today that I'll be looking at a feature phone as I'm not sure I can be bothered with jumping through all the hoops required to de-Google an Android phone. I remember a time before mobile phones, I was just fine without one - smartphones aren't that good, just convenient.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
kybernetyk 5y ago
>Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously Makes you wonder how many pedophiles there is in tech.
delaaxe 5y ago
non-insignificant -> significant
- bArray 5y ago
  I used a double negative on purpose there :)
intricatedetail 5y ago
The problem with 1. is that a tiny amount of people understand or care about the issue. It won't make a difference to Apple bottom line. Then when other companies start doing it, you eventually become tech excluded. This needs to be dealt with at legislative level.
mrweasel 5y ago
> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. The sad reality right now is that we're actively suggesting that peoples stop buying smart phones, and I think that would mean that any argument will fall on deaf ears. Yes, projects like the PinePhone exists, but they aren't ready for the general public. As much as I agree with your comment, the sad reality is that I have to pick between Apple and Google. Of those two companies I still trust Apple significantly more.
- fragileone 5y ago
  That's not the only choice at all. Pixel phones + GrapheneOS/CalyxOS. Various phones + LineageOS. Various devices + SailfishOS. Librem 5. PinePhone. Fairphone. /e/. F(x)Tec Pro1. You're greatly underestimating the ability of people to adapt when suggiciently motivated, especially when so many devices can be bought fully set up and most people use only a few apps anyway.
  - seanp2k2 5y ago
    There are lots of DIY electric car kits out there too, but suggesting one as a viable alternative daily driver to mass-market consumers seems a bit unrealistic. Apple was nice in theory because it provided out-of-the-box privacy and security that laypeople could just go buy.
mythz 5y ago
> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. As much as I dislike this invasion of privacy, I still trust Apple's products, ecosystem & stewardship over the alternatives (for use by whole family). Although this is the first time in recent memory where not having a viable alternative to consider is irksome as I don't see where the negative push back will come from to prevent further user hostile invasions like this - can only hope it ends here and it's not the start of a slippery slope towards govt surveillance.
- laurent92 5y ago
  The UK porn filter is already seeing works to extending to fighting against extremism on the Internet.
- e-clinton 5y ago
  What scare me is that now that this capability will be out there, a court could compel Apple to go a lot farther
bottled_poe 5y ago
> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. This is impossible. Just like modern democratic voting, you don’t get to vote on an individual policy. You vote on a bundle and that bundle almost certainly includes policies (or in this case “features”) that you don’t agree with.
- fragileone 5y ago
  So? If a corporation (or political party) does a shockingly egregious thing that doesn't align with your values then you absolutely should switch to an alternative that supports your values.
  - c-cube 5y ago
    What if all of them do at least one egregious thing? Especially when "all" means just apple and Google?
  - Ceiling 5y ago
    He’s saying that every option is not an ideal option. So there’s nothing to “switch” to.
Krasnol 5y ago
> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. Too bad many people have been trapped within the Apple bubble and are unable to jump ship because they have no idea how the rest works, how they get their data over there and don't have the time to do all this. This is why Apple IS a monopolist and this is how it ends up being a problem.
snarf21 5y ago
I think the biggest challenge is a lack of consumer choice. Part of this is the complete failure of the FTC and the SEC in the 21st century. Maybe Pinephone will be compelling some day in the future but it isn't now. I don't want to be on tech support for my entire family trying to get some toy phone to work. We've built phones that are generally simple enough for a random grandma to do the couple things they need to do but the problem is to them FB, etc. IS the internet. That is where they see the pictures of their grandkids, they don't care about anything else. I think there is a #4 that could be on the list. People within Apple could try to push back and protest and walk-out or any other means to try to make this fight go viral. However, the media and population write large will push back "... for the children." I've always thought that these problems are more solvable with Whistleblower Awards plus Witness Protection packages for the major enablers. There are lots of people in these rings or with someone who is but they are dependent on those same bad people for their necessities. Also, some of these rings are crime group adjacent and witnesses would need protection. From what I'm reading, it seems like turning off iCloud (maybe just for photos?) will turn off this scanning. It is unclear to me what server side scanning Apple was/wasn't doing on photos uploaded to iCloud previously/currently. The one thing that occurred to me is that this is almost seems like this is a cya, Section 230 protection in disguise. There has been more discussions about Big Tech and 230, and this is one way to say "Look, we are compliant on our platform. Don't remove our protections or break us up, we are your friend!"
d0mine 5y ago
"vote with your fit" is as ineffective as taking less showers. It is a non-solution (what helps is growing less food in a desert, aligning government with the needs of most people)
simonh 5y ago
That would be fine except an informed choice depends on accurate information, and this letter starts off saying things that are patently false. “ Apple's proposed technology works by continuously monitoring photos saved or shared on the user's iPhone, iPad, or Mac. ” No it doesn’t, photos just saved in the phone are never scanned by either of the systems Apple is implementing, and shared photos are only scanned in two very specific situations. Also they avoid pointing out the iMessage aspect of this is opt in only, so it only applies to children and only if parents choose to enable it, and it's off by default. You can completely avoid all scanning entirely by not opting in children for the iMesage scan, which is irrelevant to you if you don’t have children anyway, and not using iCloud Photo Library. Photos you keep on your phone or share using other services will not be scanned. Anyone just reading this letter wouldn't know any of that. How is this promoting informed choice? Bear in mind the iCloud Photo Library scan is being implemented in order to meet a legal obligation. Apple is required by law to scan photos uploaded to their cloud service. So really there are two issues here. One is the question of parental authority over optionally enabling the scan for their children’s use of iMessage. That's a legitimate concern over the privacy of children, no question. The other is whether this is an appropriate way for Apple to comply with US law requiring scanning of uploaded images, and whether that law is appropriate. Again, entirely legitimate concerns that this letter obfuscates completely.
- ajconway 5y ago
  Probably the main issue is that every time a technology or regulation that starts like that (“you don’t need to worry if you’re not doing anything wrong”) is then inevitably expanded into repressive activities by governments around the world.
  - simonh 5y ago
    Oh absolutely, the laws that started all of this are terribly thought through, all a child pornographer has to do to avoid these controls is not use iCloud Photo Library. That's it, just do that and they can have as much child porn on their phones as they like, and share it however they like using iMessage or anything else.
ksec 5y ago
I actually view this as not a good sign. That many are still in the very very early stage of shock, what Apple is doing does not align with their perceived values. Deducting points from Apple in their own mental model. They write these letter because they think Apple is still mostly good and hope they could have a change of heart. What would happen as some others have pointed out, people will forget about it. Apple will bump out decent Mac products line, along with very good iPhone hardware in a few months time. Which will add points back to their mental model. "May be Apple is really doing it in good faith" "They aren't so bad, let's wait and see." Apple's marketing and PR have changed in the past 5 - 6 years. My guess is their KPI had changed. And they will ( successfully ) white wash any doubt you have. And 2022 Q1 results ( That is the iPhone 13 launch quarter ) will be record breaking again. And that is not even including competition. I mean for pete sake is Microsoft or Google even trying to compete? ( I give credit to their Surface Laptop and Pixel team, but still far from enough )
- busymom0 5y ago
  Fair point and you are probably right. However, this is getting them a ton of bad press from pretty major players in the privacy world (Edward Snowden for example). This has high chances of a lot of people abandoning Apple products (I'll no longer purchase new apple products and already switching over to de-googled Android). Privacy is obviously just a marketing play by Apple but this time, they can't hide it and it might actually hurt their bottom line.
  - parasubvert 5y ago
    I actually expect most to support Apple’s approach here. But it is early.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > I mean for pete sake is Microsoft or Google even trying to compete? Forget the evil monopolies. Consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinehone. They may not be ready for an average user, but the HN audience can take advantage of them and help their develoment.
fibers 5y ago
with regards to #1, that is what I did last year when I chose to buy apple since safetynet would mean i would be completely hosed in buying a phone that works with privacy centered custom roms while also using important apps. now that apple is completely breaking user trust where you you possibly think people can 'vote with their feet'? this is a libertarian fantasy other than simply not using smartphones altogether?
kktkti9 5y ago
Apple has a right to protect themselves from being an accomplice to distribution of child porn. Maybe you freedom fighters should have heeded the warnings over the decades of creeping corporate control and stopped buying their products? Oooh but that dopamine high from new stuff is so addictive! Now you’re finding yourself in an overturned boat, adrift at sea, no life jacket, and you’re ready to take on monopoly? The anti-politics bloc incensed their political hands off approach enabled others to wield politics against them. Good luck.
seanp2k2 5y ago
The thing that gets me about #1 is that if I prefer iOS to Android, there is nothing that can replace iCloud. Google Photos and other apps cannot upload seamlessly in the background as iCloud can. I cannot “restore my iPhone” from a Google Drive backup. Apple uses private APIs for their own software to enable this, so now I must either use iCloud and accept these terms, or make iTunes backups regularly + deal with the inconvenient workarounds required to let things like Google Photos sync everything. Given that there are two realistic choices in mobile OS these days, both bound to hardware (and update schedules to a combination of mfg + carrier whim), it’s not a great position to be in as a consumer. And yet, what is the alternative? PinePhone?

by bArray 5y ago

peakaboo 5y ago

I think people need to wise up extreamly quickly to what we are facing here. I cannot overstate the importance of being extreamly sceptical of the motives of tech giants at this point in time.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

> especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greater good. Not surprising at all. In Russia, _every_ measure to limit internet freedom was introduced under the pretence of fighting child pornography and extremism. Then, of course, it was used to block the websites of political opponents.

hulitu 5y ago
Not only in Russia. It's sad to see a country (in central europe) which puts a guy 8 years in jail for raping children more than 8 years, justifying such invazive software as defence against CP.
Muromec 5y ago
It was promotion of suicide before it was extremism and cp
rjzzleep 5y ago
No need to look at russia only, what about Germany, one of those "bastions of free speech". Also, wasn't the rational for the crypto ban the same? Either terrorism or Child Porn? If you support E2E you're effectively supporting child porn? https://gigaom.com/2009/06/16/germany-to-vote-on-block-list-aimed-at-stopping-child-porn/ https://gigaom.com/2009/06/16/germany-to-vote-on-block-list-...
- zajio1am 5y ago
  Does anyone really think of Germany as "bastion of free speech"? It is one of few european countries that still have (actively used) anti-blasphemy laws[1] and laws against insulting foreign leaders[2]. [1] https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/02/27/in-rare-move-germany-fines-atheist-e500-for-violating-blasphemy-law/ https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2016/02/27/in-rare-move-... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/german-erdogan-insult-case/478437/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/ge...
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    Fun fact, it's also the only place that I know of where you can get fined for calling a German a Nazi.
    - jkaplowitz 5y ago
      In many countries (including the US) there are circumstances where defamation law can create civil or criminal liability for such a claim, but yeah, usually not merely for stating it without certain other things also being true about the situation. Conversely, there are cases in Germany where calling someone a Nazi would not lead to a fine. One very clear example: Person A: [Unambiguously asserts a sincere adherence to Nazi ideology] Person B: Did you hear that, everyone? Person A is a Nazi.
      - rjzzleep 5y ago
        I'm not talking about defamation. I can understand why you would infer that. The fine I'm talking about is about "feeling insulted". There doesn't even have to be a third person present. Say someone treats you in a racist way, you call him Nazi, judge can order you to pay 400 Euros(or more depending how damaging he thinks you may have been to his feelings) for hurting his feelings. No need to have a witness prove it either. It's a purely subjective judgement. You calling someone Nazi to shut down someone in public actually seems to work well to shut down public discourse judging from what I'm observing in Germany right now. I don't think those defamation lawsuits go anywhere(even though they should).

sillysaurusx 5y ago

> a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously We're all here to make ourselves feel good saying we Took A Stand. In reality, four weeks from now, do you think anybody will still be talking about it? I made this same mistake. I was pretty convinced that people were taking Copilot seriously, and that there was possibly going to be ramifications for Microsoft. I wasn't particularly looking forward to it, but I rated it as plausible. One stonewall and a few weeks later, here we are. Hardly a word anymore about it. I think if there's going to be any real, long-term change, we have to find a way to combat the real threat: life goes on. (Made me smile to phrase it like that, actually. That wasn't the combat I had in mind...) It's true, though. Ask anyone in a month whether they take this seriously. They'll say yes. And what's it worth? It's all we can do, of course. But that's just another way of saying we're powerless. Like it or not, we aren't in control. And unless we can figure a way to get some measure of control, then what are we doing here, really? Your three bullet points are wonderful, and I agree entirely with them. And it won't change a damn thing. I'm not sure what to do about it.

dijit 5y ago
Can’t speak for everybody of course, but I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem and I’m heavily invested (watch, phone, MacBook, Mac Pro, Apple TV). I’ve also been recommending to friends and family to move to droids with microG. The largest concern I have for them is that they’re stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Most people aren’t going to run a droid without google, or Linux on the desktop.
- brigandish 5y ago
  > I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem Me too. I told my wife today that I'll be looking at a feature phone as I'm not sure I can be bothered with jumping through all the hoops required to de-Google an Android phone. I remember a time before mobile phones, I was just fine without one - smartphones aren't that good, just convenient.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago

kybernetyk 5y ago

>Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously Makes you wonder how many pedophiles there is in tech.

delaaxe 5y ago

non-insignificant -> significant

bArray 5y ago
I used a double negative on purpose there :)

intricatedetail 5y ago

The problem with 1. is that a tiny amount of people understand or care about the issue. It won't make a difference to Apple bottom line. Then when other companies start doing it, you eventually become tech excluded. This needs to be dealt with at legislative level.

mrweasel 5y ago

> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. The sad reality right now is that we're actively suggesting that peoples stop buying smart phones, and I think that would mean that any argument will fall on deaf ears. Yes, projects like the PinePhone exists, but they aren't ready for the general public. As much as I agree with your comment, the sad reality is that I have to pick between Apple and Google. Of those two companies I still trust Apple significantly more.

fragileone 5y ago
That's not the only choice at all. Pixel phones + GrapheneOS/CalyxOS. Various phones + LineageOS. Various devices + SailfishOS. Librem 5. PinePhone. Fairphone. /e/. F(x)Tec Pro1. You're greatly underestimating the ability of people to adapt when suggiciently motivated, especially when so many devices can be bought fully set up and most people use only a few apps anyway.
- seanp2k2 5y ago
  There are lots of DIY electric car kits out there too, but suggesting one as a viable alternative daily driver to mass-market consumers seems a bit unrealistic. Apple was nice in theory because it provided out-of-the-box privacy and security that laypeople could just go buy.

mythz 5y ago

> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. As much as I dislike this invasion of privacy, I still trust Apple's products, ecosystem & stewardship over the alternatives (for use by whole family). Although this is the first time in recent memory where not having a viable alternative to consider is irksome as I don't see where the negative push back will come from to prevent further user hostile invasions like this - can only hope it ends here and it's not the start of a slippery slope towards govt surveillance.

laurent92 5y ago
The UK porn filter is already seeing works to extending to fighting against extremism on the Internet.
e-clinton 5y ago
What scare me is that now that this capability will be out there, a court could compel Apple to go a lot farther

bottled_poe 5y ago

> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. This is impossible. Just like modern democratic voting, you don’t get to vote on an individual policy. You vote on a bundle and that bundle almost certainly includes policies (or in this case “features”) that you don’t agree with.

fragileone 5y ago
So? If a corporation (or political party) does a shockingly egregious thing that doesn't align with your values then you absolutely should switch to an alternative that supports your values.
- c-cube 5y ago
  What if all of them do at least one egregious thing? Especially when "all" means just apple and Google?
- Ceiling 5y ago
  He’s saying that every option is not an ideal option. So there’s nothing to “switch” to.

Krasnol 5y ago

> 1. Vote with your feet - Put your money in the pockets of the people aligned to your values. Too bad many people have been trapped within the Apple bubble and are unable to jump ship because they have no idea how the rest works, how they get their data over there and don't have the time to do all this. This is why Apple IS a monopolist and this is how it ends up being a problem.

snarf21 5y ago

I think the biggest challenge is a lack of consumer choice. Part of this is the complete failure of the FTC and the SEC in the 21st century. Maybe Pinephone will be compelling some day in the future but it isn't now. I don't want to be on tech support for my entire family trying to get some toy phone to work. We've built phones that are generally simple enough for a random grandma to do the couple things they need to do but the problem is to them FB, etc. IS the internet. That is where they see the pictures of their grandkids, they don't care about anything else. I think there is a #4 that could be on the list. People within Apple could try to push back and protest and walk-out or any other means to try to make this fight go viral. However, the media and population write large will push back "... for the children." I've always thought that these problems are more solvable with Whistleblower Awards plus Witness Protection packages for the major enablers. There are lots of people in these rings or with someone who is but they are dependent on those same bad people for their necessities. Also, some of these rings are crime group adjacent and witnesses would need protection. From what I'm reading, it seems like turning off iCloud (maybe just for photos?) will turn off this scanning. It is unclear to me what server side scanning Apple was/wasn't doing on photos uploaded to iCloud previously/currently. The one thing that occurred to me is that this is almost seems like this is a cya, Section 230 protection in disguise. There has been more discussions about Big Tech and 230, and this is one way to say "Look, we are compliant on our platform. Don't remove our protections or break us up, we are your friend!"

d0mine 5y ago

"vote with your fit" is as ineffective as taking less showers. It is a non-solution (what helps is growing less food in a desert, aligning government with the needs of most people)

simonh 5y ago

That would be fine except an informed choice depends on accurate information, and this letter starts off saying things that are patently false. “ Apple's proposed technology works by continuously monitoring photos saved or shared on the user's iPhone, iPad, or Mac. ” No it doesn’t, photos just saved in the phone are never scanned by either of the systems Apple is implementing, and shared photos are only scanned in two very specific situations. Also they avoid pointing out the iMessage aspect of this is opt in only, so it only applies to children and only if parents choose to enable it, and it's off by default. You can completely avoid all scanning entirely by not opting in children for the iMesage scan, which is irrelevant to you if you don’t have children anyway, and not using iCloud Photo Library. Photos you keep on your phone or share using other services will not be scanned. Anyone just reading this letter wouldn't know any of that. How is this promoting informed choice? Bear in mind the iCloud Photo Library scan is being implemented in order to meet a legal obligation. Apple is required by law to scan photos uploaded to their cloud service. So really there are two issues here. One is the question of parental authority over optionally enabling the scan for their children’s use of iMessage. That's a legitimate concern over the privacy of children, no question. The other is whether this is an appropriate way for Apple to comply with US law requiring scanning of uploaded images, and whether that law is appropriate. Again, entirely legitimate concerns that this letter obfuscates completely.

ajconway 5y ago
Probably the main issue is that every time a technology or regulation that starts like that (“you don’t need to worry if you’re not doing anything wrong”) is then inevitably expanded into repressive activities by governments around the world.
- simonh 5y ago
  Oh absolutely, the laws that started all of this are terribly thought through, all a child pornographer has to do to avoid these controls is not use iCloud Photo Library. That's it, just do that and they can have as much child porn on their phones as they like, and share it however they like using iMessage or anything else.

ksec 5y ago

I actually view this as not a good sign. That many are still in the very very early stage of shock, what Apple is doing does not align with their perceived values. Deducting points from Apple in their own mental model. They write these letter because they think Apple is still mostly good and hope they could have a change of heart. What would happen as some others have pointed out, people will forget about it. Apple will bump out decent Mac products line, along with very good iPhone hardware in a few months time. Which will add points back to their mental model. "May be Apple is really doing it in good faith" "They aren't so bad, let's wait and see." Apple's marketing and PR have changed in the past 5 - 6 years. My guess is their KPI had changed. And they will ( successfully ) white wash any doubt you have. And 2022 Q1 results ( That is the iPhone 13 launch quarter ) will be record breaking again. And that is not even including competition. I mean for pete sake is Microsoft or Google even trying to compete? ( I give credit to their Surface Laptop and Pixel team, but still far from enough )

busymom0 5y ago
Fair point and you are probably right. However, this is getting them a ton of bad press from pretty major players in the privacy world (Edward Snowden for example). This has high chances of a lot of people abandoning Apple products (I'll no longer purchase new apple products and already switching over to de-googled Android). Privacy is obviously just a marketing play by Apple but this time, they can't hide it and it might actually hurt their bottom line.
- parasubvert 5y ago
  I actually expect most to support Apple’s approach here. But it is early.
fsflover 5y ago
> I mean for pete sake is Microsoft or Google even trying to compete? Forget the evil monopolies. Consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinehone. They may not be ready for an average user, but the HN audience can take advantage of them and help their develoment.

fibers 5y ago

with regards to #1, that is what I did last year when I chose to buy apple since safetynet would mean i would be completely hosed in buying a phone that works with privacy centered custom roms while also using important apps. now that apple is completely breaking user trust where you you possibly think people can 'vote with their feet'? this is a libertarian fantasy other than simply not using smartphones altogether?

kktkti9 5y ago

Apple has a right to protect themselves from being an accomplice to distribution of child porn. Maybe you freedom fighters should have heeded the warnings over the decades of creeping corporate control and stopped buying their products? Oooh but that dopamine high from new stuff is so addictive! Now you’re finding yourself in an overturned boat, adrift at sea, no life jacket, and you’re ready to take on monopoly? The anti-politics bloc incensed their political hands off approach enabled others to wield politics against them. Good luck.

seanp2k2 5y ago

The thing that gets me about #1 is that if I prefer iOS to Android, there is nothing that can replace iCloud. Google Photos and other apps cannot upload seamlessly in the background as iCloud can. I cannot “restore my iPhone” from a Google Drive backup. Apple uses private APIs for their own software to enable this, so now I must either use iCloud and accept these terms, or make iTunes backups regularly + deal with the inconvenient workarounds required to let things like Google Photos sync everything. Given that there are two realistic choices in mobile OS these days, both bound to hardware (and update schedules to a combination of mfg + carrier whim), it’s not a great position to be in as a consumer. And yet, what is the alternative? PinePhone?