6 ms·

I get anxious every time I read another patent troll story wondering when my weekend creations will end up costing me $ when they accidentally infringe on a pat

I get anxious every time I read another patent troll story wondering when my weekend creations will end up costing me $ when they accidentally infringe on a patent because I roll out some seemingly ubiquitous feature. I'm deeply saddened by this mess and doubt it will ever be resolved. There is far to much money at stake now to revert things - money = lobbying.

monochromatic 15y ago
If it's any consolation, hearing from a patent troll means you've built a successful product.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Harkins 15y ago
  And that you now own as little of the profits from it as they think you can survive on.
- MikeCapone 15y ago
  That's like saying that hearing from the Mafia means you now have a successful business. Hoorah, I guess...
- smashing 15y ago
  Except you don't need to make a profit to be subject to a lawsuit. Hobby or weekend projects are just as liable.
  - monochromatic 15y ago
    Well sure. But from a practical standpoint, a patent troll is far less likely to bother with someone who doesn't have reasonably deep pockets.
    - georgemcbay 15y ago
      While this is generally right, it is also fairly common for patent trolls to go after some small fish they claim are violating a patent first to set a precedent of wins (or settlements) against opponents with weak legal war-chests. A string of these small victories makes it much easier for them to shake down the big targets later... So while you PROBABLY won't be the target of a lawsuit unless you're very successful, there's a bit of a lottery that happens pretty often with these cases where some small percent of small targets do get run over by the patent holders on the road to the bigger guys. And if you happen to draw the short straw on that, it sucks to be you.
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  More like: you look like you've got enough resources to pay out, but not enough to put up a good fight. One of the problems with patent enforcement: the patent holder has the right, but not the obligation, to pursue infringement. Or in plain English: they can pick their fights. If IBM, Mac's Komputer Shoppe, and Western States Services, Inc. all infringe, odds are good that the PatTrollCo will skip IBM (able to defend) and Mac (no assets) but nail WSS (big enough to have assets, not big enough to have attorneys on retainer or a significant patent portfolio).
mpk 15y ago
> [...] they accidentally infringe on a patent I hate to break it to you, but chances are that you infringe on hundreds, if not more, patents in the US. Nobody can tell you what or even how many patents you infringe on, though. Nobody has read all the patents and every single one is subject to interpretation. An interpretation, I might add, that has to be validated by a legal system that really doesn't care about correctness, technical validation or even fairness. Patents in the software industry were historically held for defensive purposes. If you get large enough you start building a patent portfolio so other companies can't sue you because you'll sue them back. Everybody infringes on everybody else's absurd patents so suing is a Mutually Assured Destruction scenario (neither party wins and the lawyers take all the money that you could have invested in something worthwhile). Companies like Lodsys and Intellectual Ventures are different. They only have patents and they have no product. So if they sue you for patent infringement you can't sue back even if you have patents because they don't have a product and by definition can't infringe on your patents (if you have them). Patent fights between corporations are ugly enough, but are generally on a more-or-less level playing field. They happen in the courts between very well funded armies of lawyers. Suits between, say, Lodsys (money + patents + lawyers + no product) and independent developers (no money + no patents + no lawyers + product) are so vastly uneven and unfair that most developers will just give up before this ever comes before a court. Even if you want to do it on principle it'll bankrupt your life. Just giving up and finding safer markets with (maybe) lower profit margins seems like the obvious way to go for anybody.
- dsimms 15y ago
  Also, there's value in sticking your head in the sand since if you know a patent exists but don't think you're infringing but then lose an infringement case, you're liable for treble damages (IIRC, IANAL, etc). Every employee handbook I've seen that has mention of patents has said ``thou shalt not go patent surfing, and if you do, only ever talk to your patent attorney. Oh, but do file lots of patent applications!''
- firebones 15y ago
  I wonder if there will be a "Finlandization" of software development (concept courtesy of Chris Crawford's classic "Balance of Power" game) where small devs and dev shops align with larger, protective entities that provide defensive protection in exchange for association with the aura of small, indy developers. Think (evilly): Myrhvold's IV Labs or Apple or Microsoft or IBM offers a "Friends of IV/Apple/MSFT/IBM" program where for $495 annually (like a Apple Developer Connection subscription) you're guaranteed protection, get a t-shirt, give up some PR, etc. Eh...
gord 15y ago
Actually, there may be a moral responsibility on all of us developers/hackers to make it obvious to the general public how ridiculous most sw patents are. For example, we could apply machine learning / data mining to categorise patents so that we can say patent N, M and L are 95% equivalent in some well defined sense. ie. we could fight back with firm data which ridicules the Patent system into revamp or obsolescence.
- semiquaver 15y ago
  Listen to the this american life story, they mention a piece of software used by patent lawyers which does basically that.
dodo53 15y ago
If you infringe a patent - isn't possible to get a fixed cost or is it a fraction of earnings? Can you be more out of pocket than what you earn? ie can you do [1. Possibly cursory layperson check of existing patents ] 2. Weekend / hobby / small-scale project 3. Oh! People like it, it's making money / scaling! 4. Get lawyer in to do proper patent search before continuing? (not that this is ideal either)
- Natsu 15y ago
  You can agree to license it for whatever the other party is willing to license it for. It's the court costs that can pretty much bankrupt you.

monochromatic 15y ago

If it's any consolation, hearing from a patent troll means you've built a successful product.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Harkins 15y ago
And that you now own as little of the profits from it as they think you can survive on.
MikeCapone 15y ago
That's like saying that hearing from the Mafia means you now have a successful business. Hoorah, I guess...
smashing 15y ago
Except you don't need to make a profit to be subject to a lawsuit. Hobby or weekend projects are just as liable.
- monochromatic 15y ago
  Well sure. But from a practical standpoint, a patent troll is far less likely to bother with someone who doesn't have reasonably deep pockets.
  - georgemcbay 15y ago
    While this is generally right, it is also fairly common for patent trolls to go after some small fish they claim are violating a patent first to set a precedent of wins (or settlements) against opponents with weak legal war-chests. A string of these small victories makes it much easier for them to shake down the big targets later... So while you PROBABLY won't be the target of a lawsuit unless you're very successful, there's a bit of a lottery that happens pretty often with these cases where some small percent of small targets do get run over by the patent holders on the road to the bigger guys. And if you happen to draw the short straw on that, it sucks to be you.
dredmorbius 15y ago
More like: you look like you've got enough resources to pay out, but not enough to put up a good fight. One of the problems with patent enforcement: the patent holder has the right, but not the obligation, to pursue infringement. Or in plain English: they can pick their fights. If IBM, Mac's Komputer Shoppe, and Western States Services, Inc. all infringe, odds are good that the PatTrollCo will skip IBM (able to defend) and Mac (no assets) but nail WSS (big enough to have assets, not big enough to have attorneys on retainer or a significant patent portfolio).

mpk 15y ago

> [...] they accidentally infringe on a patent I hate to break it to you, but chances are that you infringe on hundreds, if not more, patents in the US. Nobody can tell you what or even how many patents you infringe on, though. Nobody has read all the patents and every single one is subject to interpretation. An interpretation, I might add, that has to be validated by a legal system that really doesn't care about correctness, technical validation or even fairness. Patents in the software industry were historically held for defensive purposes. If you get large enough you start building a patent portfolio so other companies can't sue you because you'll sue them back. Everybody infringes on everybody else's absurd patents so suing is a Mutually Assured Destruction scenario (neither party wins and the lawyers take all the money that you could have invested in something worthwhile). Companies like Lodsys and Intellectual Ventures are different. They only have patents and they have no product. So if they sue you for patent infringement you can't sue back even if you have patents because they don't have a product and by definition can't infringe on your patents (if you have them). Patent fights between corporations are ugly enough, but are generally on a more-or-less level playing field. They happen in the courts between very well funded armies of lawyers. Suits between, say, Lodsys (money + patents + lawyers + no product) and independent developers (no money + no patents + no lawyers + product) are so vastly uneven and unfair that most developers will just give up before this ever comes before a court. Even if you want to do it on principle it'll bankrupt your life. Just giving up and finding safer markets with (maybe) lower profit margins seems like the obvious way to go for anybody.

dsimms 15y ago
Also, there's value in sticking your head in the sand since if you know a patent exists but don't think you're infringing but then lose an infringement case, you're liable for treble damages (IIRC, IANAL, etc). Every employee handbook I've seen that has mention of patents has said ``thou shalt not go patent surfing, and if you do, only ever talk to your patent attorney. Oh, but do file lots of patent applications!''
firebones 15y ago
I wonder if there will be a "Finlandization" of software development (concept courtesy of Chris Crawford's classic "Balance of Power" game) where small devs and dev shops align with larger, protective entities that provide defensive protection in exchange for association with the aura of small, indy developers. Think (evilly): Myrhvold's IV Labs or Apple or Microsoft or IBM offers a "Friends of IV/Apple/MSFT/IBM" program where for $495 annually (like a Apple Developer Connection subscription) you're guaranteed protection, get a t-shirt, give up some PR, etc. Eh...

gord 15y ago

Actually, there may be a moral responsibility on all of us developers/hackers to make it obvious to the general public how ridiculous most sw patents are. For example, we could apply machine learning / data mining to categorise patents so that we can say patent N, M and L are 95% equivalent in some well defined sense. ie. we could fight back with firm data which ridicules the Patent system into revamp or obsolescence.

semiquaver 15y ago
Listen to the this american life story, they mention a piece of software used by patent lawyers which does basically that.

dodo53 15y ago

If you infringe a patent - isn't possible to get a fixed cost or is it a fraction of earnings? Can you be more out of pocket than what you earn? ie can you do [1. Possibly cursory layperson check of existing patents ] 2. Weekend / hobby / small-scale project 3. Oh! People like it, it's making money / scaling! 4. Get lawyer in to do proper patent search before continuing? (not that this is ideal either)

Natsu 15y ago
You can agree to license it for whatever the other party is willing to license it for. It's the court costs that can pretty much bankrupt you.