7 ms·

But nominally, you can be a political fool in Switzerland without professional consequence.[a] It seems he is being forced to play by the social rules of China

by ipnon 5y ago

But nominally, you can be a political fool in Switzerland without professional consequence.[a] It seems he is being forced to play by the social rules of China in Switzerland. It's fair to say his tweets could jeopardize his ability to return to China and secure a professorship or research position, but to suffer professional consequences in Switzerland, in the heart of Europe, for Chinese political incorrectness is unprecedented. [a] For example, in America you can post on Facebook about MAGA or tweet about BLM and you will rarely if ever lose your job or doctorate candidacy.

casualracism 5y ago
As I said in another comment, in the U.S., if you’re an African American studies PhD student and you post a racist cartoon depicting black stereotypes, it’s not hard to imagine losing your doctorate candidacy.
- deleted 5y ago
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- ipnon 5y ago
  Especially in America's highly controversial political climate today. This story would be much easier to parse if he had merely criticized the CCP, rather than reposting the cartoon. We should remember this incident and see if the pattern will repeat in the future, or if this was a case of inappropriate behavior that was fairly disciplined.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yann2 5y ago
  What happens if I study cockroaches? Chinese cockroaches to be specific. Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? What about bears?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - another_story 5y ago
    I would assume in the first case, like the previous example, you would lose the Ph.D. But the second example with bears (assuming Pooh) is not a fair comparison to hate speech.
  - Marvin_Martian 5y ago
    Considering that the UBS put their chief economist on a leave of absence (initially they communicated that he had been let go of completly), for calling pigs in china "chinese pigs", I think ever mentioning that topic alone would already be to much.
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    > Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? Are there a lot of those floating around?
- jollybean 5y ago
  Why are you comparing blatantly racist actions with mild, indirect criticism of a government?
  - casualracism 5y ago
    What are you even talking about? Posting racist cartoon depicting stereotypes about Chinese is exactly what the Chinese studies PhD student did, so this is an exact parallel.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      A cartoon which has Chinese characters is not racist.
      - samvega_ 5y ago
        It had winnie the poo memes afaik. It would be like posting the drawn image of obama as a monkey (which caused a stir a while ago) while criticizing his policies in the US.
        casualracism 5y ago
        Maybe you read about the incident elsewhere but TFA vaguely hints at a drawing of a Chinese person with offensively stereotyped features, which doesn’t sound compatible with your Winnie the Pooh theory. In any case TFA deliberately made it hard for readers to form their own judgement.
        dash2 5y ago
        Wait a second. Is the argument here that comparing Xi Jinping to Winnie the Pooh is "racist"? As opposed to just, say, offensive to a very powerful fat man? Wow, OK. I think we have a new standard for the use of racism accusations to censor people.
        l332mn 5y ago
unabirra 5y ago
Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. Not sure if you are really not aware of this, or if your comment is not in good faith.
- CraigJPerry 5y ago
  Is that true? I had a quick search and i only found one case - a Michael J Dale covered in various outlets alleging dismissal for MAGA support back in 2018. However, i cant find that the case actually went to court. It appears Michael has decided against testing his claim in court? I can find some cases for the opposite - dismissal for criticising president Trimp: Jeff Klinzman had his day in court and was awarded a payout. Rob Rogers didn’t go through courts but former employer on record in the Guardian newspaper confirming reason for his dismissal was his criticism of trump. Craig Silverman again didn’t go via courts but his previous employer confirmed the reason for his shows termination. Allegations that don’t appear to have gone to court yet: Dr. Bandy Lee (2020) Gabriel Noronha (2020)
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    > I had a quick search and i only found one case Cases (as in court cases) are just the easily visible tip of the iceberg. We do not see the aggrieved who did not make their story public for whatever reason.
    - ipnon 5y ago
      MAGA proponents are not fools and know when to keep their opinions to themselves, I've noticed. My last company was openly hostile to the last President as a matter of informal policy, and there was much polite nodding in supposed agreement.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- josephtill 5y ago
  > Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. I've never heard of such a thing. Could you give a specific example of these "lots of people"?
Barrin92 5y ago
from the context of the article it seems like he's getting his PhD in Chinese studies, and obviously that likely means you will have relations to China, which is what the professor in question was worried about. It's a little bit like majoring in Iranian studies, insulting the Ayatollah and prophet on Twitter and then being upset when you get barred from the country and people start professionally ditching you. Like, when you pursue an academic career with close ties to a country with a very different political set of values I would assume you understand the kind of diplomatic issues you can run into?
- ramraj07 5y ago
  He didn’t study China just some environmental aspects of it. But point still stands.
- rocqua 5y ago
  His PhD was about environmental damage in China. That is not something cultural or diplomatic. It does not require close ties with China, though it does help to have access. Nothing here means you shouldn't criticize China. In fact, the premise of the research becomes moot if you cannot criticize China.
  - everly 5y ago
    I think it actually requires both diplomacy and cultural awareness. If you want to study the ‘damage’ that a country is doing, it seems like it would serve you well to avoid ruffling too many feathers so that you can do your work in peace and without being accused of bias.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >That is not something cultural or diplomatic it evidently is or else we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Everything in China is political which everyone knows who has ever interacted with Chinese institutions. (which you probably will if you study environmental damage in China). It's really not that surprising that a professor is not going to associate with someone who posts vaguely racist cartoons to his ten followers on twitter if it costs them their visa. If you really want a career that involves studying aspects of a foreign culture you better learn to navigate the waters or you won't have a career, that's not really a new thing. If you're an archaeologist you probably won't be one for long if you insult the governments that let you access your dig sites, is that really a scandal?
MikeUt 5y ago
Maybe not lose your job, but the University of California will prevent you from getting one, as they require all job candidates to commit to and have a history of advancing diversity. Conflicting political posts would probably harm your ability to pass this first step of the job application process. The University’s New Loyalty Oath - https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oath-11576799749 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oat...
- rocqua 5y ago
  I doubt the UCA is actually going to check. But it us still horrible that a university is enacting such a political requirement. It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. Though perhaps the self-selection is also meant as a goal.
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    > It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. If you mean my speculation about political posts, then you're probably right. But if you mean the diversity pledge screening, then you couldn't be more wrong. From another article on the same subject: > eight different departments affiliated with the life sciences used a diversity rubric to weed out applicants for positions. This was the first step: In one example, of a pool of 894 candidates was narrowed down to 214 based solely on how convincing their plans to spread diversity were. https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver...
elygre 5y ago
In the US, tweeting critically about Israel would probably be the bigger risk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_contro...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  You found an incredibly ripe cherry to pluck with this one! Literally anyone with a beef can attempt to derail a hiring decision nowadays. People are getting unhired because someone dug up old Instagram videos where they say the N word while singing rap lyrics as a teenager. It’s absolutely insane, and you cherry picked one example that is not even remotely representative of this phenomenon as a whole.
ak_111 5y ago
you most certainly lose your professorship in the US for tweeting mild stuff: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/Babson-professor-fired-Iran-trump.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/B... also, renowned foreign professors in the US are sometimes bullied and treated as badly as they are in China: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020... Chinese government is of course far more authoritarian but it is wise to point out that things have been worsening in US academia over the last couple of years.
- ipnon 5y ago
  My rebuttal would be that in the US there is a strong cultural reaction against such "political correctness", while CCP seems to be doubling down on the necessity of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics with Xi Jinping as the nation's steward.
volta83 5y ago
The student partner was living in Wuhan. The partner beg them to stop, and they didn’t. Its partner is lucky not to be sent to a “re-education” camp. We all agree that the fact that this can happen is wrong, but what the student did is not just wishful thinking, they put their loved ones at risk. That’s very disrespectful of other people lives. A PhD proofs that one is capable of conducting independent research on some topic. This story proofs that they are definitely not capable of conducting and directing independent research on China, so it makes no sense for this student to be on a PhD program anyways. They should have known better, since they were “China experts”, but they didn’t.
beaunative 5y ago
Couple of professors who are unfriendly to black people got fired too, not saying its wrong, but its not that different in this case. Someone got offended, someone got fired.
sudosysgen 5y ago
You can definitely get in massive trouble in the US and put your job in danger. Your superiors just have to massively disagree, or you might be posting about sensitive topics like Israel or the military. Both BLM and MAGA are incredibly mainstream movements.
sushid 5y ago
He was getting a PhD from a university in China though? He was deregistered as a PhD candidate in his former university as well. If you're on a Chinese government scholarship and visa and your livelihood depends on that (as well as new family ties), why would you criticize the Chinese government? His research and life was tied to China. I would imagine you'd want to play by their social rules then.

by ipnon 5y ago

casualracism 5y ago

As I said in another comment, in the U.S., if you’re an African American studies PhD student and you post a racist cartoon depicting black stereotypes, it’s not hard to imagine losing your doctorate candidacy.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ipnon 5y ago
Especially in America's highly controversial political climate today. This story would be much easier to parse if he had merely criticized the CCP, rather than reposting the cartoon. We should remember this incident and see if the pattern will repeat in the future, or if this was a case of inappropriate behavior that was fairly disciplined.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yann2 5y ago
What happens if I study cockroaches? Chinese cockroaches to be specific. Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? What about bears?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- another_story 5y ago
  I would assume in the first case, like the previous example, you would lose the Ph.D. But the second example with bears (assuming Pooh) is not a fair comparison to hate speech.
- Marvin_Martian 5y ago
  Considering that the UBS put their chief economist on a leave of absence (initially they communicated that he had been let go of completly), for calling pigs in china "chinese pigs", I think ever mentioning that topic alone would already be to much.
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  > Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? Are there a lot of those floating around?
jollybean 5y ago
Why are you comparing blatantly racist actions with mild, indirect criticism of a government?
- casualracism 5y ago
  What are you even talking about? Posting racist cartoon depicting stereotypes about Chinese is exactly what the Chinese studies PhD student did, so this is an exact parallel.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    A cartoon which has Chinese characters is not racist.
    - samvega_ 5y ago
      It had winnie the poo memes afaik. It would be like posting the drawn image of obama as a monkey (which caused a stir a while ago) while criticizing his policies in the US.
      - casualracism 5y ago
        Maybe you read about the incident elsewhere but TFA vaguely hints at a drawing of a Chinese person with offensively stereotyped features, which doesn’t sound compatible with your Winnie the Pooh theory. In any case TFA deliberately made it hard for readers to form their own judgement.
      - dash2 5y ago
        Wait a second. Is the argument here that comparing Xi Jinping to Winnie the Pooh is "racist"? As opposed to just, say, offensive to a very powerful fat man? Wow, OK. I think we have a new standard for the use of racism accusations to censor people.
        l332mn 5y ago

unabirra 5y ago

Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. Not sure if you are really not aware of this, or if your comment is not in good faith.

CraigJPerry 5y ago
Is that true? I had a quick search and i only found one case - a Michael J Dale covered in various outlets alleging dismissal for MAGA support back in 2018. However, i cant find that the case actually went to court. It appears Michael has decided against testing his claim in court? I can find some cases for the opposite - dismissal for criticising president Trimp: Jeff Klinzman had his day in court and was awarded a payout. Rob Rogers didn’t go through courts but former employer on record in the Guardian newspaper confirming reason for his dismissal was his criticism of trump. Craig Silverman again didn’t go via courts but his previous employer confirmed the reason for his shows termination. Allegations that don’t appear to have gone to court yet: Dr. Bandy Lee (2020) Gabriel Noronha (2020)
- bmn__ 5y ago
  > I had a quick search and i only found one case Cases (as in court cases) are just the easily visible tip of the iceberg. We do not see the aggrieved who did not make their story public for whatever reason.
  - ipnon 5y ago
    MAGA proponents are not fools and know when to keep their opinions to themselves, I've noticed. My last company was openly hostile to the last President as a matter of informal policy, and there was much polite nodding in supposed agreement.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
josephtill 5y ago
> Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. I've never heard of such a thing. Could you give a specific example of these "lots of people"?

Barrin92 5y ago

from the context of the article it seems like he's getting his PhD in Chinese studies, and obviously that likely means you will have relations to China, which is what the professor in question was worried about. It's a little bit like majoring in Iranian studies, insulting the Ayatollah and prophet on Twitter and then being upset when you get barred from the country and people start professionally ditching you. Like, when you pursue an academic career with close ties to a country with a very different political set of values I would assume you understand the kind of diplomatic issues you can run into?

ramraj07 5y ago
He didn’t study China just some environmental aspects of it. But point still stands.
rocqua 5y ago
His PhD was about environmental damage in China. That is not something cultural or diplomatic. It does not require close ties with China, though it does help to have access. Nothing here means you shouldn't criticize China. In fact, the premise of the research becomes moot if you cannot criticize China.
- everly 5y ago
  I think it actually requires both diplomacy and cultural awareness. If you want to study the ‘damage’ that a country is doing, it seems like it would serve you well to avoid ruffling too many feathers so that you can do your work in peace and without being accused of bias.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >That is not something cultural or diplomatic it evidently is or else we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Everything in China is political which everyone knows who has ever interacted with Chinese institutions. (which you probably will if you study environmental damage in China). It's really not that surprising that a professor is not going to associate with someone who posts vaguely racist cartoons to his ten followers on twitter if it costs them their visa. If you really want a career that involves studying aspects of a foreign culture you better learn to navigate the waters or you won't have a career, that's not really a new thing. If you're an archaeologist you probably won't be one for long if you insult the governments that let you access your dig sites, is that really a scandal?

MikeUt 5y ago

Maybe not lose your job, but the University of California will prevent you from getting one, as they require all job candidates to commit to and have a history of advancing diversity. Conflicting political posts would probably harm your ability to pass this first step of the job application process. The University’s New Loyalty Oath - https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oath-11576799749 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oat...

rocqua 5y ago
I doubt the UCA is actually going to check. But it us still horrible that a university is enacting such a political requirement. It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. Though perhaps the self-selection is also meant as a goal.
- MikeUt 5y ago
  > It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. If you mean my speculation about political posts, then you're probably right. But if you mean the diversity pledge screening, then you couldn't be more wrong. From another article on the same subject: > eight different departments affiliated with the life sciences used a diversity rubric to weed out applicants for positions. This was the first step: In one example, of a pool of 894 candidates was narrowed down to 214 based solely on how convincing their plans to spread diversity were. https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver...

elygre 5y ago

In the US, tweeting critically about Israel would probably be the bigger risk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_contro...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jkhdigital 5y ago
You found an incredibly ripe cherry to pluck with this one! Literally anyone with a beef can attempt to derail a hiring decision nowadays. People are getting unhired because someone dug up old Instagram videos where they say the N word while singing rap lyrics as a teenager. It’s absolutely insane, and you cherry picked one example that is not even remotely representative of this phenomenon as a whole.

ak_111 5y ago

you most certainly lose your professorship in the US for tweeting mild stuff: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/Babson-professor-fired-Iran-trump.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/B... also, renowned foreign professors in the US are sometimes bullied and treated as badly as they are in China: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020... Chinese government is of course far more authoritarian but it is wise to point out that things have been worsening in US academia over the last couple of years.

ipnon 5y ago
My rebuttal would be that in the US there is a strong cultural reaction against such "political correctness", while CCP seems to be doubling down on the necessity of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics with Xi Jinping as the nation's steward.

volta83 5y ago

The student partner was living in Wuhan. The partner beg them to stop, and they didn’t. Its partner is lucky not to be sent to a “re-education” camp. We all agree that the fact that this can happen is wrong, but what the student did is not just wishful thinking, they put their loved ones at risk. That’s very disrespectful of other people lives. A PhD proofs that one is capable of conducting independent research on some topic. This story proofs that they are definitely not capable of conducting and directing independent research on China, so it makes no sense for this student to be on a PhD program anyways. They should have known better, since they were “China experts”, but they didn’t.

beaunative 5y ago

Couple of professors who are unfriendly to black people got fired too, not saying its wrong, but its not that different in this case. Someone got offended, someone got fired.

sudosysgen 5y ago

You can definitely get in massive trouble in the US and put your job in danger. Your superiors just have to massively disagree, or you might be posting about sensitive topics like Israel or the military. Both BLM and MAGA are incredibly mainstream movements.

sushid 5y ago

He was getting a PhD from a university in China though? He was deregistered as a PhD candidate in his former university as well. If you're on a Chinese government scholarship and visa and your livelihood depends on that (as well as new family ties), why would you criticize the Chinese government? His research and life was tied to China. I would imagine you'd want to play by their social rules then.