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The professor should be fired and the university punished (doubtful), but the student was also an idiot to do what he did. It’s not like he was some random guy

The professor should be fired and the university punished (doubtful), but the student was also an idiot to do what he did. It’s not like he was some random guy who just tweeted at China, he lived in wuhan for years and has actual family there now, being critical of a totalitarian government in that scenario is the height of monumental stupidity. It’s ironic that the article paints him as methodological and thoughtful because he seems anything but in his actions.

new299 5y ago
Reminds me of the Shaw quote: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
- TechnoTimeStop 5y ago
  Aye! Fuck the oppressive CCP shithole agenda!
ipnon 5y ago
But nominally, you can be a political fool in Switzerland without professional consequence.[a] It seems he is being forced to play by the social rules of China in Switzerland. It's fair to say his tweets could jeopardize his ability to return to China and secure a professorship or research position, but to suffer professional consequences in Switzerland, in the heart of Europe, for Chinese political incorrectness is unprecedented. [a] For example, in America you can post on Facebook about MAGA or tweet about BLM and you will rarely if ever lose your job or doctorate candidacy.
- casualracism 5y ago
  As I said in another comment, in the U.S., if you’re an African American studies PhD student and you post a racist cartoon depicting black stereotypes, it’s not hard to imagine losing your doctorate candidacy.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipnon 5y ago
    Especially in America's highly controversial political climate today. This story would be much easier to parse if he had merely criticized the CCP, rather than reposting the cartoon. We should remember this incident and see if the pattern will repeat in the future, or if this was a case of inappropriate behavior that was fairly disciplined.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - yann2 5y ago
    What happens if I study cockroaches? Chinese cockroaches to be specific. Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? What about bears?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - another_story 5y ago
      I would assume in the first case, like the previous example, you would lose the Ph.D. But the second example with bears (assuming Pooh) is not a fair comparison to hate speech.
    - Marvin_Martian 5y ago
      Considering that the UBS put their chief economist on a leave of absence (initially they communicated that he had been let go of completly), for calling pigs in china "chinese pigs", I think ever mentioning that topic alone would already be to much.
    - bigbillheck 5y ago
      > Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? Are there a lot of those floating around?
  - 5y ago
- unabirra 5y ago
  Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. Not sure if you are really not aware of this, or if your comment is not in good faith.
  - CraigJPerry 5y ago
    Is that true? I had a quick search and i only found one case - a Michael J Dale covered in various outlets alleging dismissal for MAGA support back in 2018. However, i cant find that the case actually went to court. It appears Michael has decided against testing his claim in court? I can find some cases for the opposite - dismissal for criticising president Trimp: Jeff Klinzman had his day in court and was awarded a payout. Rob Rogers didn’t go through courts but former employer on record in the Guardian newspaper confirming reason for his dismissal was his criticism of trump. Craig Silverman again didn’t go via courts but his previous employer confirmed the reason for his shows termination. Allegations that don’t appear to have gone to court yet: Dr. Bandy Lee (2020) Gabriel Noronha (2020)
    - bmn__ 5y ago
      > I had a quick search and i only found one case Cases (as in court cases) are just the easily visible tip of the iceberg. We do not see the aggrieved who did not make their story public for whatever reason.
      - ipnon 5y ago
        MAGA proponents are not fools and know when to keep their opinions to themselves, I've noticed. My last company was openly hostile to the last President as a matter of informal policy, and there was much polite nodding in supposed agreement.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - josephtill 5y ago
    > Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. I've never heard of such a thing. Could you give a specific example of these "lots of people"?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  from the context of the article it seems like he's getting his PhD in Chinese studies, and obviously that likely means you will have relations to China, which is what the professor in question was worried about. It's a little bit like majoring in Iranian studies, insulting the Ayatollah and prophet on Twitter and then being upset when you get barred from the country and people start professionally ditching you. Like, when you pursue an academic career with close ties to a country with a very different political set of values I would assume you understand the kind of diplomatic issues you can run into?
  - ramraj07 5y ago
    He didn’t study China just some environmental aspects of it. But point still stands.
  - rocqua 5y ago
    His PhD was about environmental damage in China. That is not something cultural or diplomatic. It does not require close ties with China, though it does help to have access. Nothing here means you shouldn't criticize China. In fact, the premise of the research becomes moot if you cannot criticize China.
    - everly 5y ago
      I think it actually requires both diplomacy and cultural awareness. If you want to study the ‘damage’ that a country is doing, it seems like it would serve you well to avoid ruffling too many feathers so that you can do your work in peace and without being accused of bias.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      >That is not something cultural or diplomatic it evidently is or else we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Everything in China is political which everyone knows who has ever interacted with Chinese institutions. (which you probably will if you study environmental damage in China). It's really not that surprising that a professor is not going to associate with someone who posts vaguely racist cartoons to his ten followers on twitter if it costs them their visa. If you really want a career that involves studying aspects of a foreign culture you better learn to navigate the waters or you won't have a career, that's not really a new thing. If you're an archaeologist you probably won't be one for long if you insult the governments that let you access your dig sites, is that really a scandal?
- MikeUt 5y ago
  Maybe not lose your job, but the University of California will prevent you from getting one, as they require all job candidates to commit to and have a history of advancing diversity. Conflicting political posts would probably harm your ability to pass this first step of the job application process. The University’s New Loyalty Oath - https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oath-11576799749 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oat...
  - rocqua 5y ago
    I doubt the UCA is actually going to check. But it us still horrible that a university is enacting such a political requirement. It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. Though perhaps the self-selection is also meant as a goal.
    - MikeUt 5y ago
      > It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. If you mean my speculation about political posts, then you're probably right. But if you mean the diversity pledge screening, then you couldn't be more wrong. From another article on the same subject: > eight different departments affiliated with the life sciences used a diversity rubric to weed out applicants for positions. This was the first step: In one example, of a pool of 894 candidates was narrowed down to 214 based solely on how convincing their plans to spread diversity were. https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver...
- elygre 5y ago
  In the US, tweeting critically about Israel would probably be the bigger risk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_contro...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    You found an incredibly ripe cherry to pluck with this one! Literally anyone with a beef can attempt to derail a hiring decision nowadays. People are getting unhired because someone dug up old Instagram videos where they say the N word while singing rap lyrics as a teenager. It’s absolutely insane, and you cherry picked one example that is not even remotely representative of this phenomenon as a whole.
- ak_111 5y ago
  you most certainly lose your professorship in the US for tweeting mild stuff: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/Babson-professor-fired-Iran-trump.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/B... also, renowned foreign professors in the US are sometimes bullied and treated as badly as they are in China: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020... Chinese government is of course far more authoritarian but it is wise to point out that things have been worsening in US academia over the last couple of years.
  - ipnon 5y ago
    My rebuttal would be that in the US there is a strong cultural reaction against such "political correctness", while CCP seems to be doubling down on the necessity of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics with Xi Jinping as the nation's steward.
- volta83 5y ago
  The student partner was living in Wuhan. The partner beg them to stop, and they didn’t. Its partner is lucky not to be sent to a “re-education” camp. We all agree that the fact that this can happen is wrong, but what the student did is not just wishful thinking, they put their loved ones at risk. That’s very disrespectful of other people lives. A PhD proofs that one is capable of conducting independent research on some topic. This story proofs that they are definitely not capable of conducting and directing independent research on China, so it makes no sense for this student to be on a PhD program anyways. They should have known better, since they were “China experts”, but they didn’t.
- beaunative 5y ago
  Couple of professors who are unfriendly to black people got fired too, not saying its wrong, but its not that different in this case. Someone got offended, someone got fired.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You can definitely get in massive trouble in the US and put your job in danger. Your superiors just have to massively disagree, or you might be posting about sensitive topics like Israel or the military. Both BLM and MAGA are incredibly mainstream movements.
- sushid 5y ago
  He was getting a PhD from a university in China though? He was deregistered as a PhD candidate in his former university as well. If you're on a Chinese government scholarship and visa and your livelihood depends on that (as well as new family ties), why would you criticize the Chinese government? His research and life was tied to China. I would imagine you'd want to play by their social rules then.
spacebeer 5y ago
So the best way to fight totalitarian regimes is to remain silent? That will work for sure, as it always did
- rini17 5y ago
  No, that conclusion does not follow from parent.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
option 5y ago
sometimes being critical of totalitarian government is a sign of bravery. Especially for those with the skin in the game.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  “totalitarian” sounds like propaganda This is from the country responsible for the patriot act
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    "tu quoque" detected, argument is invalid There are countries in the world who do not have a patriot act or similar. They can argue in place of the USA that the government of the country discussed in the article is totalitarian.
rdiddly 5y ago
And yet I have more respect for someone criticizing China who has actual skin in the game.
kome 5y ago
monumental stupidity or monumental courage?
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Or monumental inadaptability, which could be either naive or deliberate. Including a "They would not support the other side, would they?"
jvll 5y ago
It's not about whether it was stupid what he's done. It's about the fact that China has this much influence on Swiss education.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Let us check it again: I understand it is more like "There exist operators in Swiss education who are in a weak position, e.g. for the need to obtain visa which could be critical to perform their job". It is not that there is not an influence (it could be China as much as many other entities), but given the above it is transversal to the job.
- curiousgal 5y ago
  > China has this much influence on Swiss education. What are you on about?
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    CCP influence in foreign universities is definitely a thing, at least under Xi (mostly aimed at Mainland Chinese students studying abroad, not Westerners directly). It got to the point where a special taskforce was set up specifically to tackle this issue here in Australia; I'd be surprised if we were the only country experiencing this.
curiousgal 5y ago
The story goes: dude studies in china. Is in Switzerland bc of corona. Starts posting anti CCP on Twitter. Posts racist picture, some chinese PhD student in Canada sees it. Emails his supervisor. Supervisor sees it and decides that she doesn't want to work with someone who posts racist pictures (for the wrong reason not bc of the picture but because she fears she will get excluded if she publishes with him). This is all very plausible imo if one could actually see the picture which conveniently isn't included. This is not saying anything about the CCPs control over research which is a very serious topic. As long as I don't see the relevant picture. It's a researcher not wanting to publish with a someone who posts racist stuff.
- sharken 5y ago
  It is very convenient to only mention the racist picture and not also mention the accusation of the Chinese Coronavirus cover-up. The latter is just as bad for the CCP and would also lead to the events we have seen. But it's obvious that when you are doing Chinese studies paid by a Chinese university, then you're not free from repercussions when you tweet from a European country. So yes, China is influencing European universities and the west appears to accept this.
  - curiousgal 5y ago
    What are you on about? The CCP has nothing to do with this.
    - fakedang 5y ago
      The CCP can block the supervisor's future Chinese visa prospects if she were somehow linked to the PhD candidate. Hence she disowned him and utilized the university machinery to achieve it. That's literally the premise of the article.
      - curiousgal 5y ago
        Except that's what the professor thought would happen, not what actually did. If we're to act on hypothetical then where would we draw the line? The US asks visa applicants for all of their social media accounts, seems pretty standard to me.
emn13 5y ago
I think calling for the professors dismissal in this instance is completely unwarranted. Not only do we have only one side of the story here, we don't even know what those tweets were, or if there's anything else at play here, nor is the relationship very clear here (the supposed student was actually studying in china for 3 years? What exactly was the relationship with the Swiss professor then?) Additionally, it's just not acceptable to demand others suffer the consequences for fights you picked, no matter the justification. I mean, there is clearly an argument that the funding, influence and prestige the Confucius institute grants also allows them influence, and that that influence is perhaps unwanted. But if that's the conclusion, we should demand a counter-pressure by parties that are better able to withstand chinese pressure, e.g. perhaps some coalition of European countries that reject the institute whole cloth. Unfortunately, I doubt the EU can do much here because it's already been infiltrated by governments that clearly appear to be under Chinese influence, such as Hungary, and it needs unanimity for most action; and of course Switzerland isn't even in the EU. To put it another way: I have doubts a country like Switzerland would dare to pick this fight with China alone - but if so, how absurdly unreasonable is it to expect an individual professor to, without any kind of policy. The whole issue puts the wisdom of Switzerland's idea of independence at risk. Also, I no matter how you reject China's actions, I think it's morally pretty questionable to put your partner's family at risk, even if you think you're in the right, even if you are.
- petre 5y ago
  The EU can take action against China and it has recently took soft action by updating its customs code¹. However, Germany is not particulary keen on picking fights with China, because they export vehicles to the Chinese market. Let's just say there is not enough political will to do anything like this at this time. There's also the separate issue of banning Huawei 5G network carrier equipment in the EU due to data being leaked to China. 1. https://www.fonoa.com/blog/eu-imports-from-china-after-the-vat-reform-on-july-1-2021 https://www.fonoa.com/blog/eu-imports-from-china-after-the-v...
ghufran_syed 5y ago
Totally agree - he is studying china, lived in china, has a chinese girlfriend in china who advised him to stop the critical tweets…and he just kept doing it anyway??? “His girlfriend was shocked when she saw some of the tweets. Talking with him on the telephone, she begged him to stop. Not because she necessarily disagreed with anything. But because she was worried about retaliation by the Chinese government. «I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.» Sorry to sound harsh, but I would argue that level of naivety / ignorance pretty much should disqualify him from a PhD in anything related to modern day China.
- usr1106 5y ago
  So you say only liars and cowards can get PhD today?
  - ghufran_syed 5y ago
    I say that jeopardizing the safety of your loved one and her family back in China after they specifically ask you not to take some action, and while you are safely abroad is not a good example of moral courage
    - jkhdigital 5y ago
      So what are some good examples?
jkhdigital 5y ago
> being critical of a totalitarian government in that scenario is the height of monumental stupidity. He’s not stupid, perhaps just naive. If only those with nothing at stake criticize a repressive regime then nothing would ever change.

new299 5y ago

Reminds me of the Shaw quote: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

TechnoTimeStop 5y ago
Aye! Fuck the oppressive CCP shithole agenda!

ipnon 5y ago

But nominally, you can be a political fool in Switzerland without professional consequence.[a] It seems he is being forced to play by the social rules of China in Switzerland. It's fair to say his tweets could jeopardize his ability to return to China and secure a professorship or research position, but to suffer professional consequences in Switzerland, in the heart of Europe, for Chinese political incorrectness is unprecedented. [a] For example, in America you can post on Facebook about MAGA or tweet about BLM and you will rarely if ever lose your job or doctorate candidacy.

casualracism 5y ago
As I said in another comment, in the U.S., if you’re an African American studies PhD student and you post a racist cartoon depicting black stereotypes, it’s not hard to imagine losing your doctorate candidacy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ipnon 5y ago
  Especially in America's highly controversial political climate today. This story would be much easier to parse if he had merely criticized the CCP, rather than reposting the cartoon. We should remember this incident and see if the pattern will repeat in the future, or if this was a case of inappropriate behavior that was fairly disciplined.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yann2 5y ago
  What happens if I study cockroaches? Chinese cockroaches to be specific. Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? What about bears?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - another_story 5y ago
    I would assume in the first case, like the previous example, you would lose the Ph.D. But the second example with bears (assuming Pooh) is not a fair comparison to hate speech.
  - Marvin_Martian 5y ago
    Considering that the UBS put their chief economist on a leave of absence (initially they communicated that he had been let go of completly), for calling pigs in china "chinese pigs", I think ever mentioning that topic alone would already be to much.
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    > Am I allowed to post cartoons about them? Are there a lot of those floating around?
- 5y ago
unabirra 5y ago
Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. Not sure if you are really not aware of this, or if your comment is not in good faith.
- CraigJPerry 5y ago
  Is that true? I had a quick search and i only found one case - a Michael J Dale covered in various outlets alleging dismissal for MAGA support back in 2018. However, i cant find that the case actually went to court. It appears Michael has decided against testing his claim in court? I can find some cases for the opposite - dismissal for criticising president Trimp: Jeff Klinzman had his day in court and was awarded a payout. Rob Rogers didn’t go through courts but former employer on record in the Guardian newspaper confirming reason for his dismissal was his criticism of trump. Craig Silverman again didn’t go via courts but his previous employer confirmed the reason for his shows termination. Allegations that don’t appear to have gone to court yet: Dr. Bandy Lee (2020) Gabriel Noronha (2020)
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    > I had a quick search and i only found one case Cases (as in court cases) are just the easily visible tip of the iceberg. We do not see the aggrieved who did not make their story public for whatever reason.
    - ipnon 5y ago
      MAGA proponents are not fools and know when to keep their opinions to themselves, I've noticed. My last company was openly hostile to the last President as a matter of informal policy, and there was much polite nodding in supposed agreement.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- josephtill 5y ago
  > Only if the post praises BLM and criticizes MAGA... Lots of people have lost their jobs (and even dropped from public funded colleges) because of this. I've never heard of such a thing. Could you give a specific example of these "lots of people"?
Barrin92 5y ago
from the context of the article it seems like he's getting his PhD in Chinese studies, and obviously that likely means you will have relations to China, which is what the professor in question was worried about. It's a little bit like majoring in Iranian studies, insulting the Ayatollah and prophet on Twitter and then being upset when you get barred from the country and people start professionally ditching you. Like, when you pursue an academic career with close ties to a country with a very different political set of values I would assume you understand the kind of diplomatic issues you can run into?
- ramraj07 5y ago
  He didn’t study China just some environmental aspects of it. But point still stands.
- rocqua 5y ago
  His PhD was about environmental damage in China. That is not something cultural or diplomatic. It does not require close ties with China, though it does help to have access. Nothing here means you shouldn't criticize China. In fact, the premise of the research becomes moot if you cannot criticize China.
  - everly 5y ago
    I think it actually requires both diplomacy and cultural awareness. If you want to study the ‘damage’ that a country is doing, it seems like it would serve you well to avoid ruffling too many feathers so that you can do your work in peace and without being accused of bias.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >That is not something cultural or diplomatic it evidently is or else we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Everything in China is political which everyone knows who has ever interacted with Chinese institutions. (which you probably will if you study environmental damage in China). It's really not that surprising that a professor is not going to associate with someone who posts vaguely racist cartoons to his ten followers on twitter if it costs them their visa. If you really want a career that involves studying aspects of a foreign culture you better learn to navigate the waters or you won't have a career, that's not really a new thing. If you're an archaeologist you probably won't be one for long if you insult the governments that let you access your dig sites, is that really a scandal?
MikeUt 5y ago
Maybe not lose your job, but the University of California will prevent you from getting one, as they require all job candidates to commit to and have a history of advancing diversity. Conflicting political posts would probably harm your ability to pass this first step of the job application process. The University’s New Loyalty Oath - https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oath-11576799749 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-universitys-new-loyalty-oat...
- rocqua 5y ago
  I doubt the UCA is actually going to check. But it us still horrible that a university is enacting such a political requirement. It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. Though perhaps the self-selection is also meant as a goal.
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    > It feels to me much more aimed at being able to fire people when controversy arrises than something used to actively screen new hires. If you mean my speculation about political posts, then you're probably right. But if you mean the diversity pledge screening, then you couldn't be more wrong. From another article on the same subject: > eight different departments affiliated with the life sciences used a diversity rubric to weed out applicants for positions. This was the first step: In one example, of a pool of 894 candidates was narrowed down to 214 based solely on how convincing their plans to spread diversity were. https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver...
elygre 5y ago
In the US, tweeting critically about Israel would probably be the bigger risk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_hiring_contro...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  You found an incredibly ripe cherry to pluck with this one! Literally anyone with a beef can attempt to derail a hiring decision nowadays. People are getting unhired because someone dug up old Instagram videos where they say the N word while singing rap lyrics as a teenager. It’s absolutely insane, and you cherry picked one example that is not even remotely representative of this phenomenon as a whole.
ak_111 5y ago
you most certainly lose your professorship in the US for tweeting mild stuff: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/Babson-professor-fired-Iran-trump.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/01/11/us/B... also, renowned foreign professors in the US are sometimes bullied and treated as badly as they are in China: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-refused-to-spy/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020... Chinese government is of course far more authoritarian but it is wise to point out that things have been worsening in US academia over the last couple of years.
- ipnon 5y ago
  My rebuttal would be that in the US there is a strong cultural reaction against such "political correctness", while CCP seems to be doubling down on the necessity of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics with Xi Jinping as the nation's steward.
volta83 5y ago
The student partner was living in Wuhan. The partner beg them to stop, and they didn’t. Its partner is lucky not to be sent to a “re-education” camp. We all agree that the fact that this can happen is wrong, but what the student did is not just wishful thinking, they put their loved ones at risk. That’s very disrespectful of other people lives. A PhD proofs that one is capable of conducting independent research on some topic. This story proofs that they are definitely not capable of conducting and directing independent research on China, so it makes no sense for this student to be on a PhD program anyways. They should have known better, since they were “China experts”, but they didn’t.
beaunative 5y ago
Couple of professors who are unfriendly to black people got fired too, not saying its wrong, but its not that different in this case. Someone got offended, someone got fired.
sudosysgen 5y ago
You can definitely get in massive trouble in the US and put your job in danger. Your superiors just have to massively disagree, or you might be posting about sensitive topics like Israel or the military. Both BLM and MAGA are incredibly mainstream movements.
sushid 5y ago
He was getting a PhD from a university in China though? He was deregistered as a PhD candidate in his former university as well. If you're on a Chinese government scholarship and visa and your livelihood depends on that (as well as new family ties), why would you criticize the Chinese government? His research and life was tied to China. I would imagine you'd want to play by their social rules then.

spacebeer 5y ago

So the best way to fight totalitarian regimes is to remain silent? That will work for sure, as it always did

rini17 5y ago
No, that conclusion does not follow from parent.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

option 5y ago

sometimes being critical of totalitarian government is a sign of bravery. Especially for those with the skin in the game.

imwillofficial 5y ago
“totalitarian” sounds like propaganda This is from the country responsible for the patriot act
- bmn__ 5y ago
  "tu quoque" detected, argument is invalid There are countries in the world who do not have a patriot act or similar. They can argue in place of the USA that the government of the country discussed in the article is totalitarian.

rdiddly 5y ago

And yet I have more respect for someone criticizing China who has actual skin in the game.

kome 5y ago

monumental stupidity or monumental courage?

mdp2021 5y ago
Or monumental inadaptability, which could be either naive or deliberate. Including a "They would not support the other side, would they?"

jvll 5y ago

It's not about whether it was stupid what he's done. It's about the fact that China has this much influence on Swiss education.

mdp2021 5y ago
Let us check it again: I understand it is more like "There exist operators in Swiss education who are in a weak position, e.g. for the need to obtain visa which could be critical to perform their job". It is not that there is not an influence (it could be China as much as many other entities), but given the above it is transversal to the job.
curiousgal 5y ago
> China has this much influence on Swiss education. What are you on about?
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  CCP influence in foreign universities is definitely a thing, at least under Xi (mostly aimed at Mainland Chinese students studying abroad, not Westerners directly). It got to the point where a special taskforce was set up specifically to tackle this issue here in Australia; I'd be surprised if we were the only country experiencing this.

curiousgal 5y ago

The story goes: dude studies in china. Is in Switzerland bc of corona. Starts posting anti CCP on Twitter. Posts racist picture, some chinese PhD student in Canada sees it. Emails his supervisor. Supervisor sees it and decides that she doesn't want to work with someone who posts racist pictures (for the wrong reason not bc of the picture but because she fears she will get excluded if she publishes with him). This is all very plausible imo if one could actually see the picture which conveniently isn't included. This is not saying anything about the CCPs control over research which is a very serious topic. As long as I don't see the relevant picture. It's a researcher not wanting to publish with a someone who posts racist stuff.

sharken 5y ago
It is very convenient to only mention the racist picture and not also mention the accusation of the Chinese Coronavirus cover-up. The latter is just as bad for the CCP and would also lead to the events we have seen. But it's obvious that when you are doing Chinese studies paid by a Chinese university, then you're not free from repercussions when you tweet from a European country. So yes, China is influencing European universities and the west appears to accept this.
- curiousgal 5y ago
  What are you on about? The CCP has nothing to do with this.
  - fakedang 5y ago
    The CCP can block the supervisor's future Chinese visa prospects if she were somehow linked to the PhD candidate. Hence she disowned him and utilized the university machinery to achieve it. That's literally the premise of the article.
    - curiousgal 5y ago
      Except that's what the professor thought would happen, not what actually did. If we're to act on hypothetical then where would we draw the line? The US asks visa applicants for all of their social media accounts, seems pretty standard to me.

emn13 5y ago

I think calling for the professors dismissal in this instance is completely unwarranted. Not only do we have only one side of the story here, we don't even know what those tweets were, or if there's anything else at play here, nor is the relationship very clear here (the supposed student was actually studying in china for 3 years? What exactly was the relationship with the Swiss professor then?) Additionally, it's just not acceptable to demand others suffer the consequences for fights you picked, no matter the justification. I mean, there is clearly an argument that the funding, influence and prestige the Confucius institute grants also allows them influence, and that that influence is perhaps unwanted. But if that's the conclusion, we should demand a counter-pressure by parties that are better able to withstand chinese pressure, e.g. perhaps some coalition of European countries that reject the institute whole cloth. Unfortunately, I doubt the EU can do much here because it's already been infiltrated by governments that clearly appear to be under Chinese influence, such as Hungary, and it needs unanimity for most action; and of course Switzerland isn't even in the EU. To put it another way: I have doubts a country like Switzerland would dare to pick this fight with China alone - but if so, how absurdly unreasonable is it to expect an individual professor to, without any kind of policy. The whole issue puts the wisdom of Switzerland's idea of independence at risk. Also, I no matter how you reject China's actions, I think it's morally pretty questionable to put your partner's family at risk, even if you think you're in the right, even if you are.

petre 5y ago
The EU can take action against China and it has recently took soft action by updating its customs code¹. However, Germany is not particulary keen on picking fights with China, because they export vehicles to the Chinese market. Let's just say there is not enough political will to do anything like this at this time. There's also the separate issue of banning Huawei 5G network carrier equipment in the EU due to data being leaked to China. 1. https://www.fonoa.com/blog/eu-imports-from-china-after-the-vat-reform-on-july-1-2021 https://www.fonoa.com/blog/eu-imports-from-china-after-the-v...

ghufran_syed 5y ago

Totally agree - he is studying china, lived in china, has a chinese girlfriend in china who advised him to stop the critical tweets…and he just kept doing it anyway??? “His girlfriend was shocked when she saw some of the tweets. Talking with him on the telephone, she begged him to stop. Not because she necessarily disagreed with anything. But because she was worried about retaliation by the Chinese government. «I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.» Sorry to sound harsh, but I would argue that level of naivety / ignorance pretty much should disqualify him from a PhD in anything related to modern day China.

usr1106 5y ago
So you say only liars and cowards can get PhD today?
- ghufran_syed 5y ago
  I say that jeopardizing the safety of your loved one and her family back in China after they specifically ask you not to take some action, and while you are safely abroad is not a good example of moral courage
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    So what are some good examples?

jkhdigital 5y ago

> being critical of a totalitarian government in that scenario is the height of monumental stupidity. He’s not stupid, perhaps just naive. If only those with nothing at stake criticize a repressive regime then nothing would ever change.