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What has changed is the inclusion of spyware technology on the device that can be weaponised to basically report on anything. Today it's only geared toward iCl

by Renaud 5y ago

What has changed is the inclusion of spyware technology on the device that can be weaponised to basically report on anything. Today it's only geared toward iCloud and CSAM. How many lines of codes do you think it will take before it scans all your local pictures? How hard do you think it will be for an authoritarian regime like China, that Apple bends over backwards to please, to start including other hashes that are not CSAM? iCloud is opt-out. They can scan server-side like everyone does. Your device is your device, and it now contains, deeply embedded into it, the ability to perform actions that are not under your control and can silently report you directly to the authorities. If you don't see a deep change there, I don't know what to say. I live in a country that is getting more authoritarian by the day, where people are sent to prison (some for life) for criticizing the government, sometime just for chanting or printing a slogan. This is the kind of crap that makes me extremely angry at Apple. Under the guise of something no-one can genuinely be against (think of the children!), they have now included a pretty generic snitch into your phone and made everyone accept it.

wonnage 5y ago
We gotta stop with the China bogeyman every time a privacy issue comes up. This is a feature designed by an American company for American government surveillance purposes. China is perfectly capable of doing the same surveillance or worse on its own citizens, with or without Apple. China has nothing to do with why American tech is progressively implementing more authoritarian features in a supposedly democratic country.
- dannyw 5y ago
  China is just an example. In Australia, the law allows our executive department to order tech companies to build backdoors for the investigation of any crime punishable by more than 2 years imprisonment. We actually had the anti terror department arrest a popular, left-leaning YouTube influencer for harassment while physically assaulting his mum (all on video). That's something that is literally unprecedented in Hong Kong just 3 years ago.
- bigiain 5y ago
  Ok. How about the Saudi Arabian bogeymen then? Who took Jamal Kashoggi apart with bonesaws as he screamed? Or the Israeli bogeymen who exploited his phone for them? Or the Turkish bogeymen who also a customers of that Israeli phone exploitation company? (Or Facebook who wanted to buy those tools but got turned down, because Facebook is “too far” even for NSO who happily take Saudi and Turkish money?) There are without doubt enough privacy bogeymen to go around, trying to derail a valid argument over its use of the Chinese as the placeholder bogeyman detracts from the discussion pointlessly.
  - wonnage 5y ago
    The point is that all these bogeymen distract from the actual issue, because they make government surveillance sound like something that only happens in other places... We need to wake up and realize it's happening right here at home and has been for decades
- Renaud 5y ago
  No-one was suggesting that China was behind this move. We're talking about China taking advantage of this integrated technology to increase control over its population through backdoors like these. China already imposes that all data from Chinese users be located in China and readily accessible and mined by the authorities[1]. Apple is willing to bow to these regimes because it has substantial supply-chain interests there and it sells hundred of millions of devices. A boon to both Apple and the local government. [1]:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > We're talking about China taking advantage of this integrated technology to increase control over its population through backdoors like these. ... A boon to both Apple and the local government. But still: Secondary. The main effect of even mentioning it is to deflect attention away from Apple.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I think it's irresponsible to avoid thinking about how bad actors might use a technology you've developed. And is it really unfathomable that the US government could use this sort of thing for evil? I mean, wind back the clock to something like the Red Scare. If they had iPhones back then, they totally would have pressured Apple to add hashes for communist imagery, and use that to persecute people (or worse). (Before anyone brings this up: I do categorically reject the notion of "that was in the past; that couldn't happen today". If you truly believe that, I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing...)
Klonoar 5y ago
>What has changed is the inclusion of spyware technology on the device that can be weaponised to basically report on anything. - You are running a closed source proprietary OS that you cannot verify is not already doing anything. - This could theoretically already be weaponized (with the existing server-side implementation) by getting someone to download a file to a folder that iCloud automatically syncs from. >iCloud is opt-out. Yes, and that's how you opt out of this scanning. It's the same opt-out as before. >Under the guise of something no-one can genuinely be against (think of the children!) they have now included a pretty generic snitch into your phone and made everyone accept it. I dunno what to tell you. I think the system as designed is actually pretty smart[1] and more transparent than before. If you used iCloud before, and you're putting photos up that'd be caught in a hash comparison, you've already got a snitch. Same with any other cloud storage, short of hosting your own. [1] I reserve the right for actual bona-fide cryptographers to dissect it and set the record straight, mind you.

by Renaud 5y ago

wonnage 5y ago

We gotta stop with the China bogeyman every time a privacy issue comes up. This is a feature designed by an American company for American government surveillance purposes. China is perfectly capable of doing the same surveillance or worse on its own citizens, with or without Apple. China has nothing to do with why American tech is progressively implementing more authoritarian features in a supposedly democratic country.

dannyw 5y ago
China is just an example. In Australia, the law allows our executive department to order tech companies to build backdoors for the investigation of any crime punishable by more than 2 years imprisonment. We actually had the anti terror department arrest a popular, left-leaning YouTube influencer for harassment while physically assaulting his mum (all on video). That's something that is literally unprecedented in Hong Kong just 3 years ago.
bigiain 5y ago
Ok. How about the Saudi Arabian bogeymen then? Who took Jamal Kashoggi apart with bonesaws as he screamed? Or the Israeli bogeymen who exploited his phone for them? Or the Turkish bogeymen who also a customers of that Israeli phone exploitation company? (Or Facebook who wanted to buy those tools but got turned down, because Facebook is “too far” even for NSO who happily take Saudi and Turkish money?) There are without doubt enough privacy bogeymen to go around, trying to derail a valid argument over its use of the Chinese as the placeholder bogeyman detracts from the discussion pointlessly.
- wonnage 5y ago
  The point is that all these bogeymen distract from the actual issue, because they make government surveillance sound like something that only happens in other places... We need to wake up and realize it's happening right here at home and has been for decades
Renaud 5y ago
No-one was suggesting that China was behind this move. We're talking about China taking advantage of this integrated technology to increase control over its population through backdoors like these. China already imposes that all data from Chinese users be located in China and readily accessible and mined by the authorities[1]. Apple is willing to bow to these regimes because it has substantial supply-chain interests there and it sells hundred of millions of devices. A boon to both Apple and the local government. [1]:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > We're talking about China taking advantage of this integrated technology to increase control over its population through backdoors like these. ... A boon to both Apple and the local government. But still: Secondary. The main effect of even mentioning it is to deflect attention away from Apple.
kelnos 5y ago
I think it's irresponsible to avoid thinking about how bad actors might use a technology you've developed. And is it really unfathomable that the US government could use this sort of thing for evil? I mean, wind back the clock to something like the Red Scare. If they had iPhones back then, they totally would have pressured Apple to add hashes for communist imagery, and use that to persecute people (or worse). (Before anyone brings this up: I do categorically reject the notion of "that was in the past; that couldn't happen today". If you truly believe that, I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing...)

Klonoar 5y ago

>What has changed is the inclusion of spyware technology on the device that can be weaponised to basically report on anything. - You are running a closed source proprietary OS that you cannot verify is not already doing anything. - This could theoretically already be weaponized (with the existing server-side implementation) by getting someone to download a file to a folder that iCloud automatically syncs from. >iCloud is opt-out. Yes, and that's how you opt out of this scanning. It's the same opt-out as before. >Under the guise of something no-one can genuinely be against (think of the children!) they have now included a pretty generic snitch into your phone and made everyone accept it. I dunno what to tell you. I think the system as designed is actually pretty smart[1] and more transparent than before. If you used iCloud before, and you're putting photos up that'd be caught in a hash comparison, you've already got a snitch. Same with any other cloud storage, short of hosting your own. [1] I reserve the right for actual bona-fide cryptographers to dissect it and set the record straight, mind you.