12 ms·

Richard Stallman and the History of Free Software and Open Source (2016)

149 points by sanmak 5y ago

mastazi 5y ago
> His behavioral problems made him switch schools every now and then, and that left him, socially, as a bit of an outsider among children his age. He even admits that he never learned how to get along properly with other people. Computers, though, were a completely different story. This is almost a trope, socially awkward person becomes good at computers. When I was at Uni studying computer science, a good percentage of the students matched that profile. I wonder if this is less common today though, given that a career in a computer-related field is considered a "good career" and many more people try it. Do the "popular" kids like computers? (I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation).
- ragona 5y ago
  As someone who has interviewed and hired a lot of recent CS grads I can confirm they are way less weird than the fine people I met at the beginning of my career.
- version_five 5y ago
  I don't have the data but given the salaries I assume FAANG software eng is now the target of people that used to go for ibanking/MBB consulting, basically high achievers motivated by achievement in the eyes of others. If that's true, it's going to be a massive demographic shift from the CS folks I went to school with in the late 90s. Based on some of the discussions I see, I think this has already happened in places.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    I don't think that kind of person would last long as a dev, or get promoted very much.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      EDIT: I probably misinterpreted your point, I think you refer to "people that used to go for ibanking/MBB consulting, basically high achievers motivated by achievement in the eyes of others" Why? Are you saying that person with good social skills can't work as a dev? I don't see the connection.
      - 908B64B197 5y ago
        I've heard guys say "My goal is to stop coding after two years in the industry". It's tough to stay motivated and learn constantly when you don't like engineering and coding...
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      I think its exactly the people that get promoted disproportionately to the rest. That's their thing...
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    I've this feeling too. The people on CS today is way more "normal" than even in the 90's. But there's a shift in salaries: the biggest bite now goes for managers and developers are mostly seen as replaceable lower value workers. True nerds don't feel at home in the marketplace anymore.
    - taneq 5y ago
      That's why we start our own companies, or join small startups.
    - sascha_sl 5y ago
      I mean, you can also be a """true nerd""" and not really be too interested in competition and hard hitting jobs. I found a really nice spot working in a developer enablement / platform engineering role. You can continue to be condescending to average developers and then steer them in the right direction!
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    As a recent graduate of a high-ranked uni, this is somewhat true, but i think CS pulls some from IBanking but also from law, general engr'ing, and medicine. I and many others i know entered school thinking about medicine. While many people in CS that go to FAANG, et. al are high-achievers, most are the cohort of those people interested in science and technical work more than social focused work. Much bigger overlap with pre-med defectors. Also we had plenty of "anti-social" kids, but interestingly they achieved less and were more likely to work at a small regional company after graduating than a SV tech firm.
  - bishoprook2 5y ago
    Huh. I hadn't thought of that. I've scarcely worked anywhere with more than a smattering of younger people. You know, I wonder if a change in the type of people attracted to the profession might explain ageism more than any other factor.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - neilv 5y ago
    Before software development was the career the rich kids went to, instead of, say, Wall Street, I don't recall us computer nerds being called "high achievers". I think it helps to think of "high achiever" as PR spin for the go-to status/prestige careers for children from affluent and connected families. Whatever that is at the time. If we wanted to call someone in software a "high achiever", I suppose it could be used to describe someone who breaks the class barrier, to get the affluent go-to status career. Despite whatever affluence-biased gatekeeping the affluent established once they took it over.
- Knighttime 5y ago
  Hmm. I'm 17, so here is what I have to say on that. Keep in mind I live in a rural, farm town so it might be a bit different in more urban areas. I don't know. I'm just basing what I'm saying on what I hear online, and my own observations. Computer related fields are DEFINITELY looked on as a "good career" and "the future", but I see a lot of my peers, even if they are vaguely interested, believe that they "aren't techy enough" to have a computer related job in the future. Which I always find strange, because you don't have to be "nerdy" or anything. You just... learn? Like any other job that requires some kind of skill. You don't have to be "plumber-y" enough to get a job as a plumber, and similarly you don't have to be "techy" to get a job in tech. Anyway... Most people my age that I'm around don't know the difference between Google and the Internet, and it still tends to be the socially awkward, nerdy people who get into computers. So, to answer your question, maybe social awkwardness or being nerdy is less of a "requirement" now than before because being a "geeky computer user" isn't really a stigmatized thing anymore since everyone interacts with computers in some fashion nowadays and my generation as a whole seems a bit more open minded with a lot of things compared to previous ones, but it's still definitely a stereotype that's sticking around and probably will stay around for a while.
  - MonaroVXR 5y ago
    I'm going to counter this. I feel it's still stigmatized as hell. Got to much experiences with it. (The Netherlands)
    - cushychicken 5y ago
      Hang in there. If you're still in middle or high school (i.e. Between 12-18yrs old), you're at the worst part of your life for liking computers and geeky stuff. People around you don't know how to deal with anything that doesn't conform, so they are pretty ruthless about people who like different things. It's nothing personal about you. It's insecurity on the part of other people. If you can hang on a little longer - just long enough to get to University - you will see a total change in the environment around you. That was the first time in my life that anyone around me had any idea of what electronics or programming was. It was magical. It's a hard thing to hear when you're in the middle of what feels like an endless, miserable slog, but hang in there! University more than makes up for how lousy high school is.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  There is more "room" for normal people, but the true devotees I think are still a bit out-there. I have been noticing recently that I fundamentally think differently to my peers, but am completely at home with people I have met through common technological ideology. A "friend" recently told me off for being too nerdy, and I couldn't help but think (maybe it's too self-centered of me, but still) "Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games".
  - garmaine 5y ago
    You should have told him that.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      I remember having ~0 friends, not worth the risk. Trite, but that's my thought process.
  - memonkey 5y ago
    usually, with friends, you can say "fuck you, i'm a nerd then" and they would be cool with that
    - lookalike74 5y ago
      Exactly, and then it gets easier with people that don't really matter
  - Thiez 5y ago
    > "Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games" Did you personally contribute to this great "world building" or are you just being tribal?
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      They literally wrote "people like me", not "I personally built all those games".
- yarky 5y ago
  > I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation. That's exactly what I've realized and why I decided to get serious about cs. I didn't start in cs because I thought it was for geniuses. Then I realized a lot of non-geniuses were getting the good paying jobs, so I switched to cs just to realize that's what I actually enjoy learning about. So yeah, it looks like it's the new banking for overachievers but the lack of passion is easy to spot I'd say.
- Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
  I'm disabled so when I was child my playtime was tightly controlled as my parents were worried that I might get hurt so I played with toys and thereby electronics. When I was a teen I understood that I'm a liability in sports although my friends tried to be inclusive so again I spent my time doing nerdy things alone until I got my computer and naturally became good at it. In college I was forced to take on Computer Science by my parents as they felt it was the least physically tasking yet provides a good career; They were right. Even though my story fits the narrative of socially awkward being good with computers, as a disabled I didn't have much of choice and I feel this might be true for many.
- cjfd 5y ago
  Well, the day has only 24 hours so every hour that you spend on dealing with people is an hour you do not spend on dealing with computers and vice versa. And one has a shot at getting good at what one does often.
- KozmoNau7 5y ago
  I've worked in IT for a decade and a half, and I just don't think there's the same room for the stereotypical "not a people" person, as there used to be. As awareness and importance of the field has grown, it has become a lot more diverse and involves a lot more interaction with other people. For better or worse, you can't just hide in your safe corner and quietly build stuff anymore, you have to interact with people and accept having the lights shine on you from time to time. Just for an overview of my workplace, I think we've got maybe 7 or 8 nationalities, one person is a dance instructor, one is an almost stereotypical handsome player who woos all the girls at parties, one plays D&D with his kids, one is a weightlifter, one competes in bicycle races on a high level. It's still mostly male, but there are more and more women in IT now. Common to all of them - no matter their other traits - is that they're all extremely inquisitive and curious and have a great desire to learn, and I think that's the most important factor.
- blablabla123 5y ago
  Around 20 years ago I found it quite difficult to find anyone actually interested in computers. I mean not for gaming but rather exploring cool tools and software development. And even among those interested only few had that much interest that they would go and learn a programming language or install Linux. Of course that was a time when Computers and Internet access were rather expensive and documentation was usually only available in books. So naturally most kids using computers had parents with some sort of engineering/mathematics background or were themselves really interested in that. I think this is now changing in unexpected ways, one is that devices are becoming really locked down. (On the other hand you can now install a full-featured GNU/Linux as a app... FWIW when I tried Linux the first time it was with Winlinux or so on Win95) On the other hand documentation has become extremely good, it's more common to see devs with no engineering/math background at all.
- fsckboy 5y ago
  > I wonder if this is less common today though no, autism spectrum disorder (formerly called asperger's) is not less common today. and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy, and stallman's concerns for social policy can be seen as empathetic
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy, I don't think it's either; I think it's a different empathy. For some, it might be a subset of “normal empathy”, and for others it might be a superset, but those are probably exceptions. From talking to people, it seems like strong empathy with the easy-to-imagine (e.g. familiar) experiences of others, but less empathy with unfamiliar experiences of others – sometimes to the point where it's hard to tell the emotional state of others, or even predict how they'd react to certain situations. I'm guessing this has something to do with the "harder to model other people as being different people" thing that some people have – see the “pencil in a Smarties tube” test.[0] [0]: https://www.toxicdrums.com/smarties-pencils-child.htm https://www.toxicdrums.com/smarties-pencils-child.htm
boomboomsubban 5y ago
It's amazing that someone could consider Stallman one of their heroes and not be aware that calling him the "father of open source" would piss him off. edit also this is from 2016, which is why recent events were not even hinted at.
- mastazi 5y ago
  That's true, the first time I learned the difference between Open Source and Free Software, it was by reading something that Stallman wrote many years ago on the FSF website. He's always been very big on making that distinction.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    To be fair, "Open Source" basically coined to mean "free software, but not as Stallman means it."
    - mastazi 5y ago
      Yes, I've heard before that the expression "free software" predates "open source". Thanks for clarifying.
      - bawolff 5y ago
        Predates is understating it - it was kind of a major dispute at one time. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
    - kragen 5y ago
      This is absolutely not true. Stallman was in the group of people Cced on the email that day to get their support for using the newly-invented term "open source". He took longer than most to respond, and when he did, he responded negatively (and fairly aggressively, as I recall). But many long-time supporters of the FSF in that email discussion were totally in favor of the proposal, and it came as a surprise to me that Stallman wasn't.
wrycoder 5y ago
This is really bad. I recommend reading Steven Levy’s Hackers instead.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
DonHopkins 5y ago
There's an old joke about RMS nailing himself to a cross. It's a physical joke that requires some miming to pull off properly, but I'll try to describe it in words: RMS is trying to nail himself to a cross, and at first he drives one nail into his right hand by holding the hammer in his left hand and pounding. Then he gets this frustrated look on his face when he realizes he can't do it all by himself. So he plaintively whines "Will you please help me nail my other hand to the cross? I can't do it myself." So you take the hammer and nail from him, and start nailing his other hand to the other side of the cross. Then he loudly complains, "Owwwwww! That huuuuurts!!!!"

149 points by sanmak 5y ago

> His behavioral problems made him switch schools every now and then, and that left him, socially, as a bit of an outsider among children his age. He even admits that he never learned how to get along properly with other people. Computers, though, were a completely different story. This is almost a trope, socially awkward person becomes good at computers. When I was at Uni studying computer science, a good percentage of the students matched that profile. I wonder if this is less common today though, given that a career in a computer-related field is considered a "good career" and many more people try it. Do the "popular" kids like computers? (I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation).

ragona 5y ago
As someone who has interviewed and hired a lot of recent CS grads I can confirm they are way less weird than the fine people I met at the beginning of my career.
version_five 5y ago
I don't have the data but given the salaries I assume FAANG software eng is now the target of people that used to go for ibanking/MBB consulting, basically high achievers motivated by achievement in the eyes of others. If that's true, it's going to be a massive demographic shift from the CS folks I went to school with in the late 90s. Based on some of the discussions I see, I think this has already happened in places.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  I don't think that kind of person would last long as a dev, or get promoted very much.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    EDIT: I probably misinterpreted your point, I think you refer to "people that used to go for ibanking/MBB consulting, basically high achievers motivated by achievement in the eyes of others" Why? Are you saying that person with good social skills can't work as a dev? I don't see the connection.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      I've heard guys say "My goal is to stop coding after two years in the industry". It's tough to stay motivated and learn constantly when you don't like engineering and coding...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    I think its exactly the people that get promoted disproportionately to the rest. That's their thing...
- marcodiego 5y ago
  I've this feeling too. The people on CS today is way more "normal" than even in the 90's. But there's a shift in salaries: the biggest bite now goes for managers and developers are mostly seen as replaceable lower value workers. True nerds don't feel at home in the marketplace anymore.
  - taneq 5y ago
    That's why we start our own companies, or join small startups.
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    I mean, you can also be a """true nerd""" and not really be too interested in competition and hard hitting jobs. I found a really nice spot working in a developer enablement / platform engineering role. You can continue to be condescending to average developers and then steer them in the right direction!
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  As a recent graduate of a high-ranked uni, this is somewhat true, but i think CS pulls some from IBanking but also from law, general engr'ing, and medicine. I and many others i know entered school thinking about medicine. While many people in CS that go to FAANG, et. al are high-achievers, most are the cohort of those people interested in science and technical work more than social focused work. Much bigger overlap with pre-med defectors. Also we had plenty of "anti-social" kids, but interestingly they achieved less and were more likely to work at a small regional company after graduating than a SV tech firm.
- bishoprook2 5y ago
  Huh. I hadn't thought of that. I've scarcely worked anywhere with more than a smattering of younger people. You know, I wonder if a change in the type of people attracted to the profession might explain ageism more than any other factor.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- neilv 5y ago
  Before software development was the career the rich kids went to, instead of, say, Wall Street, I don't recall us computer nerds being called "high achievers". I think it helps to think of "high achiever" as PR spin for the go-to status/prestige careers for children from affluent and connected families. Whatever that is at the time. If we wanted to call someone in software a "high achiever", I suppose it could be used to describe someone who breaks the class barrier, to get the affluent go-to status career. Despite whatever affluence-biased gatekeeping the affluent established once they took it over.
Knighttime 5y ago
Hmm. I'm 17, so here is what I have to say on that. Keep in mind I live in a rural, farm town so it might be a bit different in more urban areas. I don't know. I'm just basing what I'm saying on what I hear online, and my own observations. Computer related fields are DEFINITELY looked on as a "good career" and "the future", but I see a lot of my peers, even if they are vaguely interested, believe that they "aren't techy enough" to have a computer related job in the future. Which I always find strange, because you don't have to be "nerdy" or anything. You just... learn? Like any other job that requires some kind of skill. You don't have to be "plumber-y" enough to get a job as a plumber, and similarly you don't have to be "techy" to get a job in tech. Anyway... Most people my age that I'm around don't know the difference between Google and the Internet, and it still tends to be the socially awkward, nerdy people who get into computers. So, to answer your question, maybe social awkwardness or being nerdy is less of a "requirement" now than before because being a "geeky computer user" isn't really a stigmatized thing anymore since everyone interacts with computers in some fashion nowadays and my generation as a whole seems a bit more open minded with a lot of things compared to previous ones, but it's still definitely a stereotype that's sticking around and probably will stay around for a while.
- MonaroVXR 5y ago
  I'm going to counter this. I feel it's still stigmatized as hell. Got to much experiences with it. (The Netherlands)
  - cushychicken 5y ago
    Hang in there. If you're still in middle or high school (i.e. Between 12-18yrs old), you're at the worst part of your life for liking computers and geeky stuff. People around you don't know how to deal with anything that doesn't conform, so they are pretty ruthless about people who like different things. It's nothing personal about you. It's insecurity on the part of other people. If you can hang on a little longer - just long enough to get to University - you will see a total change in the environment around you. That was the first time in my life that anyone around me had any idea of what electronics or programming was. It was magical. It's a hard thing to hear when you're in the middle of what feels like an endless, miserable slog, but hang in there! University more than makes up for how lousy high school is.
mhh__ 5y ago
There is more "room" for normal people, but the true devotees I think are still a bit out-there. I have been noticing recently that I fundamentally think differently to my peers, but am completely at home with people I have met through common technological ideology. A "friend" recently told me off for being too nerdy, and I couldn't help but think (maybe it's too self-centered of me, but still) "Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games".
- garmaine 5y ago
  You should have told him that.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    I remember having ~0 friends, not worth the risk. Trite, but that's my thought process.
- memonkey 5y ago
  usually, with friends, you can say "fuck you, i'm a nerd then" and they would be cool with that
  - lookalike74 5y ago
    Exactly, and then it gets easier with people that don't really matter
- Thiez 5y ago
  > "Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games" Did you personally contribute to this great "world building" or are you just being tribal?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    They literally wrote "people like me", not "I personally built all those games".
yarky 5y ago
> I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation. That's exactly what I've realized and why I decided to get serious about cs. I didn't start in cs because I thought it was for geniuses. Then I realized a lot of non-geniuses were getting the good paying jobs, so I switched to cs just to realize that's what I actually enjoy learning about. So yeah, it looks like it's the new banking for overachievers but the lack of passion is easy to spot I'd say.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I'm disabled so when I was child my playtime was tightly controlled as my parents were worried that I might get hurt so I played with toys and thereby electronics. When I was a teen I understood that I'm a liability in sports although my friends tried to be inclusive so again I spent my time doing nerdy things alone until I got my computer and naturally became good at it. In college I was forced to take on Computer Science by my parents as they felt it was the least physically tasking yet provides a good career; They were right. Even though my story fits the narrative of socially awkward being good with computers, as a disabled I didn't have much of choice and I feel this might be true for many.
cjfd 5y ago
Well, the day has only 24 hours so every hour that you spend on dealing with people is an hour you do not spend on dealing with computers and vice versa. And one has a shot at getting good at what one does often.
KozmoNau7 5y ago
I've worked in IT for a decade and a half, and I just don't think there's the same room for the stereotypical "not a people" person, as there used to be. As awareness and importance of the field has grown, it has become a lot more diverse and involves a lot more interaction with other people. For better or worse, you can't just hide in your safe corner and quietly build stuff anymore, you have to interact with people and accept having the lights shine on you from time to time. Just for an overview of my workplace, I think we've got maybe 7 or 8 nationalities, one person is a dance instructor, one is an almost stereotypical handsome player who woos all the girls at parties, one plays D&D with his kids, one is a weightlifter, one competes in bicycle races on a high level. It's still mostly male, but there are more and more women in IT now. Common to all of them - no matter their other traits - is that they're all extremely inquisitive and curious and have a great desire to learn, and I think that's the most important factor.
blablabla123 5y ago
Around 20 years ago I found it quite difficult to find anyone actually interested in computers. I mean not for gaming but rather exploring cool tools and software development. And even among those interested only few had that much interest that they would go and learn a programming language or install Linux. Of course that was a time when Computers and Internet access were rather expensive and documentation was usually only available in books. So naturally most kids using computers had parents with some sort of engineering/mathematics background or were themselves really interested in that. I think this is now changing in unexpected ways, one is that devices are becoming really locked down. (On the other hand you can now install a full-featured GNU/Linux as a app... FWIW when I tried Linux the first time it was with Winlinux or so on Win95) On the other hand documentation has become extremely good, it's more common to see devs with no engineering/math background at all.
fsckboy 5y ago
> I wonder if this is less common today though no, autism spectrum disorder (formerly called asperger's) is not less common today. and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy, and stallman's concerns for social policy can be seen as empathetic
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy, I don't think it's either; I think it's a different empathy. For some, it might be a subset of “normal empathy”, and for others it might be a superset, but those are probably exceptions. From talking to people, it seems like strong empathy with the easy-to-imagine (e.g. familiar) experiences of others, but less empathy with unfamiliar experiences of others – sometimes to the point where it's hard to tell the emotional state of others, or even predict how they'd react to certain situations. I'm guessing this has something to do with the "harder to model other people as being different people" thing that some people have – see the “pencil in a Smarties tube” test.[0] [0]: https://www.toxicdrums.com/smarties-pencils-child.htm https://www.toxicdrums.com/smarties-pencils-child.htm

boomboomsubban 5y ago

It's amazing that someone could consider Stallman one of their heroes and not be aware that calling him the "father of open source" would piss him off. edit also this is from 2016, which is why recent events were not even hinted at.

mastazi 5y ago
That's true, the first time I learned the difference between Open Source and Free Software, it was by reading something that Stallman wrote many years ago on the FSF website. He's always been very big on making that distinction.
- garmaine 5y ago
  To be fair, "Open Source" basically coined to mean "free software, but not as Stallman means it."
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Yes, I've heard before that the expression "free software" predates "open source". Thanks for clarifying.
    - bawolff 5y ago
      Predates is understating it - it was kind of a major dispute at one time. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
  - kragen 5y ago
    This is absolutely not true. Stallman was in the group of people Cced on the email that day to get their support for using the newly-invented term "open source". He took longer than most to respond, and when he did, he responded negatively (and fairly aggressively, as I recall). But many long-time supporters of the FSF in that email discussion were totally in favor of the proposal, and it came as a surprise to me that Stallman wasn't.

wrycoder 5y ago

This is really bad. I recommend reading Steven Levy’s Hackers instead.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

DonHopkins 5y ago

There's an old joke about RMS nailing himself to a cross. It's a physical joke that requires some miming to pull off properly, but I'll try to describe it in words: RMS is trying to nail himself to a cross, and at first he drives one nail into his right hand by holding the hammer in his left hand and pounding. Then he gets this frustrated look on his face when he realizes he can't do it all by himself. So he plaintively whines "Will you please help me nail my other hand to the cross? I can't do it myself." So you take the hammer and nail from him, and start nailing his other hand to the other side of the cross. Then he loudly complains, "Owwwwww! That huuuuurts!!!!"