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A statement like this is meaningless. Changing business, regulatory, and social pressures can cause WhatsApp to change direction tomorrow. Remember how at one t

A statement like this is meaningless. Changing business, regulatory, and social pressures can cause WhatsApp to change direction tomorrow. Remember how at one time Mark Zuckerberg promised that Instagram and WhatsApp data would remain separate from Facebook[1]? [1] https://mashable.com/article/mark-zuckerberg-instagram-whatsapp-independence https://mashable.com/article/mark-zuckerberg-instagram-whats...

amadeuspagel 5y ago
> Changing business, regulatory, and social pressures can cause WhatsApp to change direction tomorrow. Yeah, WhatsApp might decide to spy on you in the future, so you might as well use iMessage which already spies on you?
- crackercrews 5y ago
  iMessage isn't spying on you. There are two aspects to the scanning. One is if you use iCloud. The other is if you send photos to a minor via iMessage. If you get flagged by the iCloud scanning, you could be reported to the authorities. But you can opt out of iCloud scanning by not using iCloud. If you get flagged by the iMessage system, you are not reported to the authorities. The parents of that person may receive a notification. But if you are sending photos to a kid on a device set up by their parents, you should pretty well expect that photos you send may be seen by their parents. I understand the privacy concerns raised by Apple's about-face here. But we should be clear about what is and isn't happening. WhatsApp comes off looking like a defender of privacy by saying "we won't do what Apple has done" but in reality the most objectionable thing Apple is doing relates to cloud-based photo storage, not messaging. The messaging piece is a new type of parental controls and does not involve the authorities in any event.
  - wutbrodo 5y ago
    > you can opt out of iCloud scanning by not using iCloud. You can opt out of any privacy concerns by not using the concerning product. That's a complete non sequitur in a conversation about the concern.
    - crackercrews 5y ago
      If you read GP's comment, it conflated these two issues as if they both applied to iMessage. The point is that you don't have to opt out of iMessage to avoid being reported to the authorities. You just have to not use iCloud, a system that has many excellent competitors. You can also roll your own. This is not as big a deal as if one of the major messaging systems were snooping through all your messages and photos. That is what GP made it sound like.
      - gzer0 5y ago
        The single biggest issue is the future implications this kind of scanning tool has. China accounts for 20% of revenue for Apple, how likely are they to bow down to China's demands? How about other regulators? The fact that this is now put into place sets a very harrowing precedent.
        crackercrews 5y ago
        Agreed. But the only thing Apple is doing that involve authorities has nothing to do with iMessage, which is what was claimed above.
  - arthur_sav 5y ago
    > But we should be clear about what is and isn't happening. The situation is anything but clear.
  - lukeschlather 5y ago
    > iMessage isn't spying on you. How do you know? Apple makes a lot of claims about their security but these claims probably don't preclude Apple spying on you somehow. Especially if a warrant compels them.
- altacc 5y ago
  That’s not what they said. They’re just pointing out that statements do not always hold true over time and history tells us that a Facebook division might not be the best at holding promises. They also did not mention iMessage. There are several other popular messaging applications out there to choose from.
jbverschoor 5y ago
Actually it's not. Zuckerberg said they'll move into a privacy focused company. Zuckerberg is the master of pivoting any size of company. This will be a turningpoint, yet again, of Facebook.
- tmp_anon_22 5y ago
  > Zuckerberg is the master of I'm sure he's an intelligent executive but can we stop congratulating people solely for being at the top of the org chart? What has Zuckerberg, personally and without aid or advice, done to prove himself a "master of pivoting".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
toiletaccount 5y ago
They could prove it by publishing the code and making the builds reproducible so they have the same checksum as the binaries in the app store. I consider whatever they say lip service until proven otherwise. How anyone can call their app privacy oriented without at least showing the code is insane. Use Signal, etc., etc.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Publishing the code and making the builds reproducible doesn't prove anything on its own. This can be used for evil just by manipulating the set of hashes that it matches against, even with all of the code doing exactly what they said it will do.
thesausageking 5y ago
Exactly. Or when Facebook promised you'd never need a Facebook account to use an Oculus. They've shown over and over again they'll do whatever increases their market power and revenues. That's what I find so disappointing about Apple. They were the one large tech player that had begun to build their brand on taking privacy seriously.
- bogwog 5y ago
  > They were the one large tech player that had begun to build their brand on taking privacy seriously. "Brand" is right, because it always was, and always will be marketing and nothing more (unless maybe laws are changed and/or regulators get off their lazy asses).
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Apple have built their brand on more than privacy -> they are doing privacy / trust / security etc. I think you may find that folks don't take as dim a view on preventing exploitation of children as HN crowd. Apple has arguably the #3 to #1 brand globally currently. Let's give this some time to shake out and see how the android brands and others do (if they become the home of child exploitation and porn) brand wise.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    I think you may find that folks don't take as dim a view on preventing exploitation of children as HN crowd. ... (if they become the home of child exploitation and porn) Don't do that. It's bull and you know it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - uniqueid 5y ago
      The parent comment is anything but 'bull'. To date, every single messenger app with E2E encryption has wound up becoming popular with unsavory groups like ISIS, Atomwoffen, organized criminals, etc. While I'm personally uncomfortable with the privacy ramifications of what Apple is doing, Apple's decision is sensible in the grand scheme.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Good lord - these are the same folks who had to get rid of the whatsapp founder because he wouldn't go along with their ad targeting plans / their integration plans (all of which they had promised not to do).
hncurious 5y ago
I don't think it's meaningless. The head of WhatsApp publicly opposing it affects the conversation and social pressures. This matters because politics is downstream from culture. Certainly it's better than saying nothing or being in favor of it.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  > This matters because politics is downstream from culture. I don't think this is true, at least not most of the time. We had a summer of "defund the police" protests and BLM signs seem to be everywhere, yet police budgets in most cities have only increased[1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-city-budget-police-funding/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-city-budget-police-f...

amadeuspagel 5y ago

> Changing business, regulatory, and social pressures can cause WhatsApp to change direction tomorrow. Yeah, WhatsApp might decide to spy on you in the future, so you might as well use iMessage which already spies on you?

crackercrews 5y ago
iMessage isn't spying on you. There are two aspects to the scanning. One is if you use iCloud. The other is if you send photos to a minor via iMessage. If you get flagged by the iCloud scanning, you could be reported to the authorities. But you can opt out of iCloud scanning by not using iCloud. If you get flagged by the iMessage system, you are not reported to the authorities. The parents of that person may receive a notification. But if you are sending photos to a kid on a device set up by their parents, you should pretty well expect that photos you send may be seen by their parents. I understand the privacy concerns raised by Apple's about-face here. But we should be clear about what is and isn't happening. WhatsApp comes off looking like a defender of privacy by saying "we won't do what Apple has done" but in reality the most objectionable thing Apple is doing relates to cloud-based photo storage, not messaging. The messaging piece is a new type of parental controls and does not involve the authorities in any event.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  > you can opt out of iCloud scanning by not using iCloud. You can opt out of any privacy concerns by not using the concerning product. That's a complete non sequitur in a conversation about the concern.
  - crackercrews 5y ago
    If you read GP's comment, it conflated these two issues as if they both applied to iMessage. The point is that you don't have to opt out of iMessage to avoid being reported to the authorities. You just have to not use iCloud, a system that has many excellent competitors. You can also roll your own. This is not as big a deal as if one of the major messaging systems were snooping through all your messages and photos. That is what GP made it sound like.
    - gzer0 5y ago
      The single biggest issue is the future implications this kind of scanning tool has. China accounts for 20% of revenue for Apple, how likely are they to bow down to China's demands? How about other regulators? The fact that this is now put into place sets a very harrowing precedent.
      - crackercrews 5y ago
        Agreed. But the only thing Apple is doing that involve authorities has nothing to do with iMessage, which is what was claimed above.
- arthur_sav 5y ago
  > But we should be clear about what is and isn't happening. The situation is anything but clear.
- lukeschlather 5y ago
  > iMessage isn't spying on you. How do you know? Apple makes a lot of claims about their security but these claims probably don't preclude Apple spying on you somehow. Especially if a warrant compels them.
altacc 5y ago
That’s not what they said. They’re just pointing out that statements do not always hold true over time and history tells us that a Facebook division might not be the best at holding promises. They also did not mention iMessage. There are several other popular messaging applications out there to choose from.

jbverschoor 5y ago

Actually it's not. Zuckerberg said they'll move into a privacy focused company. Zuckerberg is the master of pivoting any size of company. This will be a turningpoint, yet again, of Facebook.

tmp_anon_22 5y ago
> Zuckerberg is the master of I'm sure he's an intelligent executive but can we stop congratulating people solely for being at the top of the org chart? What has Zuckerberg, personally and without aid or advice, done to prove himself a "master of pivoting".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

toiletaccount 5y ago

They could prove it by publishing the code and making the builds reproducible so they have the same checksum as the binaries in the app store. I consider whatever they say lip service until proven otherwise. How anyone can call their app privacy oriented without at least showing the code is insane. Use Signal, etc., etc.

josephcsible 5y ago
Publishing the code and making the builds reproducible doesn't prove anything on its own. This can be used for evil just by manipulating the set of hashes that it matches against, even with all of the code doing exactly what they said it will do.

thesausageking 5y ago

Exactly. Or when Facebook promised you'd never need a Facebook account to use an Oculus. They've shown over and over again they'll do whatever increases their market power and revenues. That's what I find so disappointing about Apple. They were the one large tech player that had begun to build their brand on taking privacy seriously.

bogwog 5y ago
> They were the one large tech player that had begun to build their brand on taking privacy seriously. "Brand" is right, because it always was, and always will be marketing and nothing more (unless maybe laws are changed and/or regulators get off their lazy asses).
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Apple have built their brand on more than privacy -> they are doing privacy / trust / security etc. I think you may find that folks don't take as dim a view on preventing exploitation of children as HN crowd. Apple has arguably the #3 to #1 brand globally currently. Let's give this some time to shake out and see how the android brands and others do (if they become the home of child exploitation and porn) brand wise.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  I think you may find that folks don't take as dim a view on preventing exploitation of children as HN crowd. ... (if they become the home of child exploitation and porn) Don't do that. It's bull and you know it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - uniqueid 5y ago
    The parent comment is anything but 'bull'. To date, every single messenger app with E2E encryption has wound up becoming popular with unsavory groups like ISIS, Atomwoffen, organized criminals, etc. While I'm personally uncomfortable with the privacy ramifications of what Apple is doing, Apple's decision is sensible in the grand scheme.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

Good lord - these are the same folks who had to get rid of the whatsapp founder because he wouldn't go along with their ad targeting plans / their integration plans (all of which they had promised not to do).

hncurious 5y ago

I don't think it's meaningless. The head of WhatsApp publicly opposing it affects the conversation and social pressures. This matters because politics is downstream from culture. Certainly it's better than saying nothing or being in favor of it.

AlexandrB 5y ago
> This matters because politics is downstream from culture. I don't think this is true, at least not most of the time. We had a summer of "defund the police" protests and BLM signs seem to be everywhere, yet police budgets in most cities have only increased[1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-city-budget-police-funding/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-city-budget-police-f...