5 ms·

> there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India

> there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag Sorry, I really cannot avoid going on a tangent because of this. We seem to talk quite differently about informal housing if it's in the US or west vs. in a poorer country. We have non-profits push for sanitation in "slums" to improve health outcomes. Yet nobody is pushing for bathroom access or garbage removal in "homeless camps". I recently read about a homeless camp in a park in Oregon where the inhabitants cut down trees for materials and fire wood. When does it become a slum and we start treating it like we'd expect poorer countries to treat their slums?

azernik 5y ago
Interestingly, my family, coming from a recently-developed country, does compare them to slums.
- asdff 5y ago
  At least in a slum like a favela you have sturdy cinderblock walls, a door that locks, some sort of a latrine situation solved, running water, and electricity, rather than a nylon tent and some debris on the sidewalk with no plumbing.
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    That can't be allowed in this country; such structures violate zoning laws and are not up to code.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    Plenty of people live in tents in favelas and Indian slums as well.
paxys 5y ago
The one in Portland has a couple dozen people living in it and has existed for maybe a year. It is routinely cleaned up/moved to different locations as well, hence a "camp". The population of a single slum in Mumbai (Dharavi) is over a million and has existed since the 1800s. Are you really concerned that they don't receive the same international attention?
- kbenson 5y ago
  I think the point being made is less about international attention, and how we (as in U.S. citizens) see our own poor compared to the poor other places. The impression, which I think has some truth to it, is that often our own poor are viewed much more unfavorably than we view the poor in other places. When it's the poor across the world, they get our sympathy, but when they're in our backyard we just want them gone. It's not about which one is the greater humanitarian problem, it's about the hypocrisy.
  - bingidingi 5y ago
    it might go back to the american superiority complex; african and asian homeless people are different and distant enough to make us feel good about ourselves (poor foreigners), american homeless are “like us” so they shouldn’t have an excuse (just get a job like i did)
derefr 5y ago
Slum buildings get addresses, are subject to zoning, have mail delivered to them, etc. It’s basically a matter of government recognition of the slum as something that won’t go away. Though also, much of that recognition comes from the fact that people in a “homeless camp” don’t tend to think of their living arrangement as permanent or the space they occupy as theirs by right; whereas the people living in a slum, do. If you live in a camp and you’re offered public housing, you’ll usually take it, because the camp wasn’t where you wanted to be. If you’re living in a slum, you might hold out for city to just improve the slum, because your dwelling in the slum is your home, for better or for worse. This is where things like the “container house” movement come into play: that demand is mostly driven by people who think of a slum as their permanent home, who want options for improving their dwelling in that slum into something they can be proud of.
cheriot 5y ago
In America, slums and informal housing is destroyed by the city government. See LA's Echo Park for a recent example https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-protesters-clash-sweep-echo-park-homeless-encampment/story?id=76701960 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-protesters-clash-sweep-echo... We have 350m people, 0.5m homeless and lack the political will to build more housing. They are expected to stay out of sight or the municipality will destroy their shelter and often trash their belongings. Humanity is more cost effective, but doesn't allow us to moralize https://scoop.me/housing-first-finland-homelessness/ https://scoop.me/housing-first-finland-homelessness/ /rant
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Note that Indian people are suffering way more than than their western counterparts. The homeless in US lives a considerably better life than Indian homeless. This is not justifying one or the other. But if one always start with humanity as one's subject of discussion, than there probably is no meaningful progress to be made at all.
  - aerovistae 5y ago
    Can you explain how it's better in the US? Seems to me like it's pretty hard to get worse than sleeping on the pavement and eating out of the trash.
    - macjohnmcc 5y ago
      I'd say that it being your life from birth to death is worse and your parents and grandparents likely suffering the same back who knows how far.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- hilbertseries 5y ago
  I think there’s a little more nuance to what happened in echo park. Echo Park lake has always had some homeless people living there, but it was nowhere close to 200 prepandemic. There was also some attempt to relocate everyone, it’s the city of LA so obviously no one really trusted them. But it’s weird to me see a public park that’s meant to be used by everyone taken over and then when it’s taken back. LA is destroying informal housing?

azernik 5y ago

Interestingly, my family, coming from a recently-developed country, does compare them to slums.

asdff 5y ago
At least in a slum like a favela you have sturdy cinderblock walls, a door that locks, some sort of a latrine situation solved, running water, and electricity, rather than a nylon tent and some debris on the sidewalk with no plumbing.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  That can't be allowed in this country; such structures violate zoning laws and are not up to code.
- Aunche 5y ago
  Plenty of people live in tents in favelas and Indian slums as well.

paxys 5y ago

The one in Portland has a couple dozen people living in it and has existed for maybe a year. It is routinely cleaned up/moved to different locations as well, hence a "camp". The population of a single slum in Mumbai (Dharavi) is over a million and has existed since the 1800s. Are you really concerned that they don't receive the same international attention?

kbenson 5y ago
I think the point being made is less about international attention, and how we (as in U.S. citizens) see our own poor compared to the poor other places. The impression, which I think has some truth to it, is that often our own poor are viewed much more unfavorably than we view the poor in other places. When it's the poor across the world, they get our sympathy, but when they're in our backyard we just want them gone. It's not about which one is the greater humanitarian problem, it's about the hypocrisy.
- bingidingi 5y ago
  it might go back to the american superiority complex; african and asian homeless people are different and distant enough to make us feel good about ourselves (poor foreigners), american homeless are “like us” so they shouldn’t have an excuse (just get a job like i did)

derefr 5y ago

Slum buildings get addresses, are subject to zoning, have mail delivered to them, etc. It’s basically a matter of government recognition of the slum as something that won’t go away. Though also, much of that recognition comes from the fact that people in a “homeless camp” don’t tend to think of their living arrangement as permanent or the space they occupy as theirs by right; whereas the people living in a slum, do. If you live in a camp and you’re offered public housing, you’ll usually take it, because the camp wasn’t where you wanted to be. If you’re living in a slum, you might hold out for city to just improve the slum, because your dwelling in the slum is your home, for better or for worse. This is where things like the “container house” movement come into play: that demand is mostly driven by people who think of a slum as their permanent home, who want options for improving their dwelling in that slum into something they can be proud of.

cheriot 5y ago

In America, slums and informal housing is destroyed by the city government. See LA's Echo Park for a recent example https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-protesters-clash-sweep-echo-park-homeless-encampment/story?id=76701960 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-protesters-clash-sweep-echo... We have 350m people, 0.5m homeless and lack the political will to build more housing. They are expected to stay out of sight or the municipality will destroy their shelter and often trash their belongings. Humanity is more cost effective, but doesn't allow us to moralize https://scoop.me/housing-first-finland-homelessness/ https://scoop.me/housing-first-finland-homelessness/ /rant

justicezyx 5y ago
Note that Indian people are suffering way more than than their western counterparts. The homeless in US lives a considerably better life than Indian homeless. This is not justifying one or the other. But if one always start with humanity as one's subject of discussion, than there probably is no meaningful progress to be made at all.
- aerovistae 5y ago
  Can you explain how it's better in the US? Seems to me like it's pretty hard to get worse than sleeping on the pavement and eating out of the trash.
  - macjohnmcc 5y ago
    I'd say that it being your life from birth to death is worse and your parents and grandparents likely suffering the same back who knows how far.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
hilbertseries 5y ago
I think there’s a little more nuance to what happened in echo park. Echo Park lake has always had some homeless people living there, but it was nowhere close to 200 prepandemic. There was also some attempt to relocate everyone, it’s the city of LA so obviously no one really trusted them. But it’s weird to me see a public park that’s meant to be used by everyone taken over and then when it’s taken back. LA is destroying informal housing?