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My first thought when reading this was hoping that these types of articles will reduce the comments I see on the internet that try and compare Delhi/Mumbai squa

My first thought when reading this was hoping that these types of articles will reduce the comments I see on the internet that try and compare Delhi/Mumbai squalor to LA. Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto. So either Westerners don't realize that people in these places are making less money in a month than the middle class person can expect to spend in an average afternoon, or there is some intermediate step of "let me compare this to what I know" that is happening. It's not really enough...you should experience it for yourself (there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag). Reminds me of learning a new language, where beginners try to formulate thoughts in their native tongue and produce a direct translation, whereas those who are fluent can skip that step completely.

devoutsalsa 5y ago
The mother of a friend on mine in Pakistan was hiring a part-time housekeeper for ~3 hours per day. One housekeeper asked for $40 USD/month, and the mother thought that was too expensive.
- kshacker 5y ago
  Well it depends on 1) the local price and 2) the ability of the mother to pay. She may not be able to afford help with an American minimum wage.
  - flemhans 5y ago
    In Mumbai, our friends were pretty well off and had a housekeeper who came 2 x 2 hours daily (preparing lunch and dinner, doing laundry, and cleaning around). The housekeeper, being paid pretty well, had her own housekeeper so she could have time for all these housekeeping gigs. The well-off friends had never tried their aircon because it "was not that hot" (35 degrees C) and rummaged around to find the remote. It was so hot, I couldn't imagine that they just accepted it.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      > The housekeeper, being paid pretty well, had her own housekeeper so she could have time for all these housekeeping gigs. Sounds like her housekeeper should get better customers.
      - s5300 5y ago
        She may be fair skinned, her housekeeper may be dark skinned. In India, something as simple as that can determine how much you may make as a housekeeper. Sucks, right?
        jeremiahlewis 5y ago
        > She may be fair skinned, her housekeeper may be dark skinned. In India, something as simple as that can determine how much you may make as a housekeeper. Sucks, right? In the USA, something as simple as skin color can determine whether you get shot by the cops or helped to assail the capitol. Sucks, right?
- captain_price7 5y ago
  Here in Dhaka, we pay around 45usd/month for 1.5hr of work per day.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Captain, did you move back to BD from the West?
    - captain_price7 5y ago
      No, born and raised in BD, never left.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        How is the industry doing these days?
thebean11 5y ago
Not disagreeing with your overall point, but amount of money (based on currency exchange rates) is a bad way to compare poverty levels across different areas. It doesn't take into account cost of living which makes a huge difference.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  I'm not talking about the American middle class in the comparison I make in the GP. I actually have no idea what you're talking about, because I didn't mention any amount of money at all.
  - thebean11 5y ago
    > So either Westerners don't realize that people in these places are making less money in a month than the middle class person can expect to spend in an average afternoon You are making a comparison between two sums of money (the amount middle class people spend in an afternoon, and the amount poor people make in a month). Obviously I misinterpreted who the middle class people were, but I doubt I'm the only one. I thought you meant middle class Westerners.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - em-bee 5y ago
      i am still confused why that makes a difference. to me the comment only makes sense if the middle class in india is more affluent than the middle class in the US. https://yourstory.com/2018/03/exactly-indias-middle-class-anyway/ https://yourstory.com/2018/03/exactly-indias-middle-class-an...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - commandlinefan 5y ago
      I read it the same way you did.
ajmurmann 5y ago
> there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag Sorry, I really cannot avoid going on a tangent because of this. We seem to talk quite differently about informal housing if it's in the US or west vs. in a poorer country. We have non-profits push for sanitation in "slums" to improve health outcomes. Yet nobody is pushing for bathroom access or garbage removal in "homeless camps". I recently read about a homeless camp in a park in Oregon where the inhabitants cut down trees for materials and fire wood. When does it become a slum and we start treating it like we'd expect poorer countries to treat their slums?
- azernik 5y ago
  Interestingly, my family, coming from a recently-developed country, does compare them to slums.
  - asdff 5y ago
    At least in a slum like a favela you have sturdy cinderblock walls, a door that locks, some sort of a latrine situation solved, running water, and electricity, rather than a nylon tent and some debris on the sidewalk with no plumbing.
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      That can't be allowed in this country; such structures violate zoning laws and are not up to code.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      Plenty of people live in tents in favelas and Indian slums as well.
- paxys 5y ago
  The one in Portland has a couple dozen people living in it and has existed for maybe a year. It is routinely cleaned up/moved to different locations as well, hence a "camp". The population of a single slum in Mumbai (Dharavi) is over a million and has existed since the 1800s. Are you really concerned that they don't receive the same international attention?
em-bee 5y ago
i would not consider someone who can spend $100 on average in an afternoon to be middle class.
- 0_____0 5y ago
  If that's $100 per half day, integrated over a month that comes out to monthly expenditures of $6000/mo, which is solidly middle class. Not working class, but certainly within reach of a low/mid level Facebook employee.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    i expect spending here to mean cash you spend while enjoying your free time outside. from that 6000 you need to subtract rent/mortgage, and any other living expenses. if you then still have enough money that you can go out and spend $100 in an afternoon on average, then you are no longer middle class i would say. the "problem" here is the average. sure, a middle class income can afford to spend $100 in an afternoon once in a while. but unless you limit your discretionary spending to only these afternoons, you'll spend money on other things too. hobbies, travel, etc. if after all that you still can afford $100 every afternoon (even if only on weekends that's already $800 a month), you got to earn enough that you simply never worry about money.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > then you are no longer middle class i would say Well what are they then? You can't seriously claim that having just $100 a day of disposable income makes you part of the upper class?
      - em-bee 5y ago
        if you have $100 a day of disposable income, you are not going to spend all of it every afternoon. if you do, your actual disposable income is much higher. money for discretionary spending is not the same as disposable income. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/disposableincome.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/disposableincome.asp defines disposable income as net income, that means after taxes but before living expenses. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/americas-slowly-disappearing-middle-class/ https://www.investopedia.com/insights/americas-slowly-disapp... defines middle class in the US as a disposable income from 35k to 106k a year. if you spend all your discretionary money on going out with your friends and not on any other hobbies, traveling, gifts, etc, then maybe you can spend $100 every weekend afternoon.
jimbob21 5y ago
Did you actually read that comment about Toronto? He immediately prefaces it by saying it isn't in the same realm, but can relate because he's poor in his area as well. I don't think that YOU realize that it is okay to relate to common feelings without being the most of that thing. The guy from Toronto doesn't have to be the most poor person in the most poor area in order to understand their feelings and talk about his. You're gatekeeping being poor. What a weird thing to be elitist about.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sombremesa 5y ago
  > Did you actually read that comment about Toronto? I did. Now that you have that information, perhaps you can actually read what I wrote.
  - jimbob21 5y ago
    Sure. > will reduce the comments I see on the internet that try and compare Delhi/Mumbai squalor to LA You want to reduce comments comparing your city's poorness to another city's poorness. > It's not really enough...you should experience it for yourself You're saying I can't talk about poor areas I know about because they're not as poor as your city. That's gatekeeping being poor, plain as day. But more than that, it totally shuts down all conversation about why your city might be so poor. What is happening in your advanced poor city that isn't happening in other cities?
    - sombremesa 5y ago
      > You want to reduce comments comparing your city's poorness to another city's poorness. Not exactly. My bad, perhaps I should've provided an example of the kind of comment I'm talking about. I can't be arsed to go find that comment right now but it's about this video: https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/video-of-man-eating-animal-carcass-on-delhi-jaipur-highway-explains-the-extent-of-locdown-crisis-2631829.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/video-of-man-eating-animal-... The comment I'm talking about begins with (iirc) "The same thing is happening in LA..." I don't know what chip you have on your shoulder about this "gatekeeping" but I wish you luck and hope that these things aren't happening in your cities, but of course you have the freedom to say that they are regardless. I want to add something: I'm just against saying that these things are the same. I'm not saying anything about better or worse or that poverty isn't poverty. Given a choice I might rather be the average homeless person in India as opposed to LA, because at least I wouldn't be as likely to be there due to crippling addictions or mental illness. That's why I compared it to languages, I don't think one established language is objectively better or worse than another, but direct translations rarely work well.
chinchilla2020 5y ago
Those of us that grew up in the third world know how ridiculous Americans can be when it comes to these comparisons. Anyone can get a minimum wage job and earn a relatively high living in the US. In the third world, you can work your ass off, be incredibly successful, and still live in squalor.
762236 5y ago
When comparing, don't compare in absolute dollars, but the purchasing power in the local economy.
johncena33 5y ago
> Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto. > [...] Reminds me of learning a new language, where beginners try to formulate thoughts in their native tongue and produce a direct translation, whereas those who are fluent can skip that step completely. Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market. So it's not just some language or cultural barrier. People have hard times understanding the predicaments of people from lower socio-economic strata even when they live in the same city and speak same language.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market. What did your therapist think was the real issue?
snambi 5y ago
There is a difference between the "slums" in India versus the ones in USA. The indian slums are just poor with no infrastructure. you will find the people in the slums to be genuine, kind and hardworking. of course there are exceptions. The slums in USA are exactly the opposite. The slum dwellers are scary to even look at. They don't work and they are anti social. They disturb the society. The slums are happening in USA, despite plenty of jobs, government programs and NGOs trying to help them. I am not one country is better than the other. simply pointing out the differences. Article such as this are written to make Americans feel good about themselves at the cost of others, while providing absolutely no solution or help to those suffering. so, either you should help or just shutup.
spoonjim 5y ago
Yep - if you see a guy riding a rickety bicycle with a goat slung over his back... think about how he might be one of the wealthier people in his community.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
Many years ago, I read of a study that measured poverty not in terms of income but with metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?" It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India. When I've repeated that online, on at least one occasion someone who lived in India got mad at me for supposedly promoting negative stereotypes and told me my info was out of date. They seemed outraged. I spent some years homeless in America. I'm still quite poor and frustrated with that fact. I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. I try to focus on how to get the word out in the US that lack of appropriate housing supply is a primary root cause of homelessness in this country. It's shocking how many people insist that lack of affordable housing has nothing to do with homelessness and homeless people are all just crazies and junkies who don't want to get better.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India. I have no trouble believing that. Same thing with the software industry really. Source control has been mainstream since the 90's, build pipeline, automation and so on. But there are still shops around where they'll look at you funny for suggesting using git, that swear copy-pasting executables in a GUI is an ok way to upgrade and where the versions of languages used are at least old enough to have a legal drink. Not a lot, but they still exist. You won't find any overlap with what's going on in SV over there.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  > I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. I think that's just it: trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. That's something I tried with the GP here, but I could probably write up an article to be linked to in such discussions. > metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?" I think this is a good thought, a focus on qualitative differences in lived experience using quantifiable metrics. With that approach you're less likely to offend rather than inform. Might be best to skip the "less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India" since it seems to suggest that American poverty isn't "real" poverty. I would even go so far as to say that communicating the cultural context is far more important than underlining the economics, the former of which TFA is attempting to do.
throwthere 5y ago
Yesterday someone posted admonishing billionaires who live lives without the sort of day-to-day experiences the rest of us do. They cited their concerns— finding enough free time to do activities, getting along with co-workers, etc. It’s just this great disconnect you run into online— people don’t realize a great deal of the world would see having those [working-class] types of concerns as luxurious and disconnected from their own. It’s just a gap you see a lot of here, you really have to work to remember how bad billions of people have it.
lsiebert 5y ago
Generally my sense is that people are not good at measuring their expertise about topics. We infer a lot of data into our world views based on paltry facts and analogy to our own experiences. We think we understand because our minds paper over the lacuna of our knowledge. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and how quick people are to believe that other people's experience is much like their own. That's why I ask people to cite sources often, or listen to their personal stories, so I can learn more.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
retrac 5y ago
I am sorry if my comment was presumptuous or inappropriate. It was not intended to be. I prefaced it with a disclaimer trying to contextualize how I was trying to relate to the story. I am aware I live in a rich country, that food and medical care as such are not an issue by comparison, even as a very poor person. I saw that the woman in the article earns barely a third what I received from the government in social assistance, on top of what I could earn. I try to be aware of that. I have only seen true slums from afar. Perhaps I have failed in that awareness. What I saw was a human story, about trying to find love with little resources and not much social standing. It is a universal theme and I tried to relate to it in that way, to feel what those people feel seeking love and companionship. I'm sorry if that was uncalled for and trying to turn the focus back on my relative privilege and material comfort. It wasn't intended to do so.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  I apologize for calling your comment out, it was not exactly the kind of comment I wanted to address. I should've provided a better example. My comment was actually not about your comment specifically, but about making these comparisons without the appropriate cultural context taken into account. I'm not passing a moral judgement or saying it's inappropriate, I'm just expressing a desire to have these comparisons be more meaningful by explicitly acknowledging the context. I have an issue with making a direct comparison as in "X phenomena is the same as Y phenomena", because it glosses over a LOT when you compare countries like India and America.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
moistly 5y ago
> Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto. Canada should provide its youth an opportunity to visit a third-world community. Every G7 nation should be giving their citizens that experience. It would make a big difference to how our future plays out.
erikerikson 5y ago
https://www.gapminder.org/dollar-street https://www.gapminder.org/dollar-street

devoutsalsa 5y ago

The mother of a friend on mine in Pakistan was hiring a part-time housekeeper for ~3 hours per day. One housekeeper asked for $40 USD/month, and the mother thought that was too expensive.

kshacker 5y ago
Well it depends on 1) the local price and 2) the ability of the mother to pay. She may not be able to afford help with an American minimum wage.
- flemhans 5y ago
  In Mumbai, our friends were pretty well off and had a housekeeper who came 2 x 2 hours daily (preparing lunch and dinner, doing laundry, and cleaning around). The housekeeper, being paid pretty well, had her own housekeeper so she could have time for all these housekeeping gigs. The well-off friends had never tried their aircon because it "was not that hot" (35 degrees C) and rummaged around to find the remote. It was so hot, I couldn't imagine that they just accepted it.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > The housekeeper, being paid pretty well, had her own housekeeper so she could have time for all these housekeeping gigs. Sounds like her housekeeper should get better customers.
    - s5300 5y ago
      She may be fair skinned, her housekeeper may be dark skinned. In India, something as simple as that can determine how much you may make as a housekeeper. Sucks, right?
      - jeremiahlewis 5y ago
        > She may be fair skinned, her housekeeper may be dark skinned. In India, something as simple as that can determine how much you may make as a housekeeper. Sucks, right? In the USA, something as simple as skin color can determine whether you get shot by the cops or helped to assail the capitol. Sucks, right?
captain_price7 5y ago
Here in Dhaka, we pay around 45usd/month for 1.5hr of work per day.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Captain, did you move back to BD from the West?
  - captain_price7 5y ago
    No, born and raised in BD, never left.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      How is the industry doing these days?

thebean11 5y ago

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but amount of money (based on currency exchange rates) is a bad way to compare poverty levels across different areas. It doesn't take into account cost of living which makes a huge difference.

sombremesa 5y ago
I'm not talking about the American middle class in the comparison I make in the GP. I actually have no idea what you're talking about, because I didn't mention any amount of money at all.
- thebean11 5y ago
  > So either Westerners don't realize that people in these places are making less money in a month than the middle class person can expect to spend in an average afternoon You are making a comparison between two sums of money (the amount middle class people spend in an afternoon, and the amount poor people make in a month). Obviously I misinterpreted who the middle class people were, but I doubt I'm the only one. I thought you meant middle class Westerners.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - em-bee 5y ago
    i am still confused why that makes a difference. to me the comment only makes sense if the middle class in india is more affluent than the middle class in the US. https://yourstory.com/2018/03/exactly-indias-middle-class-anyway/ https://yourstory.com/2018/03/exactly-indias-middle-class-an...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    I read it the same way you did.

ajmurmann 5y ago

> there's also other issues, such as people claiming there's more homeless in LA than in Delhi, not realizing that a lot of effectively homeless people in India aren't classified as such - it'd be like saying you're not homeless in LA if you have a tent or a sleeping bag Sorry, I really cannot avoid going on a tangent because of this. We seem to talk quite differently about informal housing if it's in the US or west vs. in a poorer country. We have non-profits push for sanitation in "slums" to improve health outcomes. Yet nobody is pushing for bathroom access or garbage removal in "homeless camps". I recently read about a homeless camp in a park in Oregon where the inhabitants cut down trees for materials and fire wood. When does it become a slum and we start treating it like we'd expect poorer countries to treat their slums?

azernik 5y ago
Interestingly, my family, coming from a recently-developed country, does compare them to slums.
- asdff 5y ago
  At least in a slum like a favela you have sturdy cinderblock walls, a door that locks, some sort of a latrine situation solved, running water, and electricity, rather than a nylon tent and some debris on the sidewalk with no plumbing.
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    That can't be allowed in this country; such structures violate zoning laws and are not up to code.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    Plenty of people live in tents in favelas and Indian slums as well.
paxys 5y ago
The one in Portland has a couple dozen people living in it and has existed for maybe a year. It is routinely cleaned up/moved to different locations as well, hence a "camp". The population of a single slum in Mumbai (Dharavi) is over a million and has existed since the 1800s. Are you really concerned that they don't receive the same international attention?

em-bee 5y ago

i would not consider someone who can spend $100 on average in an afternoon to be middle class.

0_____0 5y ago
If that's $100 per half day, integrated over a month that comes out to monthly expenditures of $6000/mo, which is solidly middle class. Not working class, but certainly within reach of a low/mid level Facebook employee.
- em-bee 5y ago
  i expect spending here to mean cash you spend while enjoying your free time outside. from that 6000 you need to subtract rent/mortgage, and any other living expenses. if you then still have enough money that you can go out and spend $100 in an afternoon on average, then you are no longer middle class i would say. the "problem" here is the average. sure, a middle class income can afford to spend $100 in an afternoon once in a while. but unless you limit your discretionary spending to only these afternoons, you'll spend money on other things too. hobbies, travel, etc. if after all that you still can afford $100 every afternoon (even if only on weekends that's already $800 a month), you got to earn enough that you simply never worry about money.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > then you are no longer middle class i would say Well what are they then? You can't seriously claim that having just $100 a day of disposable income makes you part of the upper class?
    - em-bee 5y ago
      if you have $100 a day of disposable income, you are not going to spend all of it every afternoon. if you do, your actual disposable income is much higher. money for discretionary spending is not the same as disposable income. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/disposableincome.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/disposableincome.asp defines disposable income as net income, that means after taxes but before living expenses. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/americas-slowly-disappearing-middle-class/ https://www.investopedia.com/insights/americas-slowly-disapp... defines middle class in the US as a disposable income from 35k to 106k a year. if you spend all your discretionary money on going out with your friends and not on any other hobbies, traveling, gifts, etc, then maybe you can spend $100 every weekend afternoon.

jimbob21 5y ago

Did you actually read that comment about Toronto? He immediately prefaces it by saying it isn't in the same realm, but can relate because he's poor in his area as well. I don't think that YOU realize that it is okay to relate to common feelings without being the most of that thing. The guy from Toronto doesn't have to be the most poor person in the most poor area in order to understand their feelings and talk about his. You're gatekeeping being poor. What a weird thing to be elitist about.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sombremesa 5y ago
> Did you actually read that comment about Toronto? I did. Now that you have that information, perhaps you can actually read what I wrote.
- jimbob21 5y ago
  Sure. > will reduce the comments I see on the internet that try and compare Delhi/Mumbai squalor to LA You want to reduce comments comparing your city's poorness to another city's poorness. > It's not really enough...you should experience it for yourself You're saying I can't talk about poor areas I know about because they're not as poor as your city. That's gatekeeping being poor, plain as day. But more than that, it totally shuts down all conversation about why your city might be so poor. What is happening in your advanced poor city that isn't happening in other cities?
  - sombremesa 5y ago
    > You want to reduce comments comparing your city's poorness to another city's poorness. Not exactly. My bad, perhaps I should've provided an example of the kind of comment I'm talking about. I can't be arsed to go find that comment right now but it's about this video: https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/video-of-man-eating-animal-carcass-on-delhi-jaipur-highway-explains-the-extent-of-locdown-crisis-2631829.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/video-of-man-eating-animal-... The comment I'm talking about begins with (iirc) "The same thing is happening in LA..." I don't know what chip you have on your shoulder about this "gatekeeping" but I wish you luck and hope that these things aren't happening in your cities, but of course you have the freedom to say that they are regardless. I want to add something: I'm just against saying that these things are the same. I'm not saying anything about better or worse or that poverty isn't poverty. Given a choice I might rather be the average homeless person in India as opposed to LA, because at least I wouldn't be as likely to be there due to crippling addictions or mental illness. That's why I compared it to languages, I don't think one established language is objectively better or worse than another, but direct translations rarely work well.

chinchilla2020 5y ago

Those of us that grew up in the third world know how ridiculous Americans can be when it comes to these comparisons. Anyone can get a minimum wage job and earn a relatively high living in the US. In the third world, you can work your ass off, be incredibly successful, and still live in squalor.

762236 5y ago

When comparing, don't compare in absolute dollars, but the purchasing power in the local economy.

johncena33 5y ago

> Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto. > [...] Reminds me of learning a new language, where beginners try to formulate thoughts in their native tongue and produce a direct translation, whereas those who are fluent can skip that step completely. Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market. So it's not just some language or cultural barrier. People have hard times understanding the predicaments of people from lower socio-economic strata even when they live in the same city and speak same language.

908B64B197 5y ago
> Immigrant brown man living in Toronto here. I don't have any dating life. Because dating a brown man is stigmatized, thanks to racism and media representation. My upper-middle class white therapist couldn't believe that I am at the bottom tier in the dating market. What did your therapist think was the real issue?

snambi 5y ago

There is a difference between the "slums" in India versus the ones in USA. The indian slums are just poor with no infrastructure. you will find the people in the slums to be genuine, kind and hardworking. of course there are exceptions. The slums in USA are exactly the opposite. The slum dwellers are scary to even look at. They don't work and they are anti social. They disturb the society. The slums are happening in USA, despite plenty of jobs, government programs and NGOs trying to help them. I am not one country is better than the other. simply pointing out the differences. Article such as this are written to make Americans feel good about themselves at the cost of others, while providing absolutely no solution or help to those suffering. so, either you should help or just shutup.

spoonjim 5y ago

Yep - if you see a guy riding a rickety bicycle with a goat slung over his back... think about how he might be one of the wealthier people in his community.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

Many years ago, I read of a study that measured poverty not in terms of income but with metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?" It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India. When I've repeated that online, on at least one occasion someone who lived in India got mad at me for supposedly promoting negative stereotypes and told me my info was out of date. They seemed outraged. I spent some years homeless in America. I'm still quite poor and frustrated with that fact. I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. I try to focus on how to get the word out in the US that lack of appropriate housing supply is a primary root cause of homelessness in this country. It's shocking how many people insist that lack of affordable housing has nothing to do with homelessness and homeless people are all just crazies and junkies who don't want to get better.

908B64B197 5y ago
> It concluded that less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India. I have no trouble believing that. Same thing with the software industry really. Source control has been mainstream since the 90's, build pipeline, automation and so on. But there are still shops around where they'll look at you funny for suggesting using git, that swear copy-pasting executables in a GUI is an ok way to upgrade and where the versions of languages used are at least old enough to have a legal drink. Not a lot, but they still exist. You won't find any overlap with what's going on in SV over there.
sombremesa 5y ago
> I don't know what the solution is for trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. I think that's just it: trying to promote better cross cultural understanding. That's something I tried with the GP here, but I could probably write up an article to be linked to in such discussions. > metrics like "How many meals per day do you get?" and "What kind of shelter do you have?" I think this is a good thought, a focus on qualitative differences in lived experience using quantifiable metrics. With that approach you're less likely to offend rather than inform. Might be best to skip the "less than 1/2 of one percent of Americans were poor by standards in India" since it seems to suggest that American poverty isn't "real" poverty. I would even go so far as to say that communicating the cultural context is far more important than underlining the economics, the former of which TFA is attempting to do.

throwthere 5y ago

Yesterday someone posted admonishing billionaires who live lives without the sort of day-to-day experiences the rest of us do. They cited their concerns— finding enough free time to do activities, getting along with co-workers, etc. It’s just this great disconnect you run into online— people don’t realize a great deal of the world would see having those [working-class] types of concerns as luxurious and disconnected from their own. It’s just a gap you see a lot of here, you really have to work to remember how bad billions of people have it.

lsiebert 5y ago

Generally my sense is that people are not good at measuring their expertise about topics. We infer a lot of data into our world views based on paltry facts and analogy to our own experiences. We think we understand because our minds paper over the lacuna of our knowledge. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and how quick people are to believe that other people's experience is much like their own. That's why I ask people to cite sources often, or listen to their personal stories, so I can learn more.

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retrac 5y ago

I am sorry if my comment was presumptuous or inappropriate. It was not intended to be. I prefaced it with a disclaimer trying to contextualize how I was trying to relate to the story. I am aware I live in a rich country, that food and medical care as such are not an issue by comparison, even as a very poor person. I saw that the woman in the article earns barely a third what I received from the government in social assistance, on top of what I could earn. I try to be aware of that. I have only seen true slums from afar. Perhaps I have failed in that awareness. What I saw was a human story, about trying to find love with little resources and not much social standing. It is a universal theme and I tried to relate to it in that way, to feel what those people feel seeking love and companionship. I'm sorry if that was uncalled for and trying to turn the focus back on my relative privilege and material comfort. It wasn't intended to do so.

sombremesa 5y ago
I apologize for calling your comment out, it was not exactly the kind of comment I wanted to address. I should've provided a better example. My comment was actually not about your comment specifically, but about making these comparisons without the appropriate cultural context taken into account. I'm not passing a moral judgement or saying it's inappropriate, I'm just expressing a desire to have these comparisons be more meaningful by explicitly acknowledging the context. I have an issue with making a direct comparison as in "X phenomena is the same as Y phenomena", because it glosses over a LOT when you compare countries like India and America.

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moistly 5y ago

> Then I read the first comment on this HN thread, which is directly comparing this to Toronto. Canada should provide its youth an opportunity to visit a third-world community. Every G7 nation should be giving their citizens that experience. It would make a big difference to how our future plays out.

erikerikson 5y ago

https://www.gapminder.org/dollar-street https://www.gapminder.org/dollar-street