5 ms·

You're making a stock-vs-flows comparison: a battery is manufactured ~once for the lifetime of a car and then produces ~zero emissions per marginal mile driven.

by feifan 5y ago

You're making a stock-vs-flows comparison: a battery is manufactured ~once for the lifetime of a car and then produces ~zero emissions per marginal mile driven. Combustion engines produce emissions for every mile driven (and require some emissions to produce as well).

hogFeast 5y ago
No, I am not. I didn't mention a flow. You seem to be assuming I said something I did not. The battery has a life of ~120k miles, constructing the battery (and often, but not always, the electricity used to charge it) is so polluting that ICE cars will typically pollute less over that same period of usage. That is what I am saying: nothing about stocks or flows. The difference in pollution is, if it exists, very marginal. EDIT: I will add, look at how cobalt is mined...it is a slave commodity from the Congo, no rules, no environmental laws...same for many other constituents of the battery.
- feifan 5y ago
  > The battery has a life of ~120k miles … This appears to be untrue. High-mileage Teslas are showing about 10% range degradation after ~250kms on the odometer: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/#jp-carousel-65298 https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep... Notably, this isn't about Tesla specifically — the broader point is that the technology exists for mass-market car batteries to support many hundreds of thousands of miles/kms within a reasonable lifespan of the battery.
  - hogFeast 5y ago
    Tesla warranty for 100-150k (depending on model). There is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal (and not really worth arguing about, just crazy stuff like: Teslas will appreciate in value).
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      Cars are typically warrantied for 3 years (or 6 years for the drivetrain), what does this have to do with expected lifespan?
    - filoleg 5y ago
      > There is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal (and not really worth arguing about, just crazy stuff like: Teslas will appreciate in value). How is this not real? This is literally something I can observe myself. I bought a new Model 3 LR AWD in 2019, and when I look for used listings for the same model right now, the exact same models from 2019 with about 22-30k mileage on them cost as much as what I paid for the new one 2 years ago. Sure, you might say it didn't appreciate since it costs just as much. But imo, when a used car with solid mileage 2 years later costs as much as the new one with zero mileage did 2 years ago, I would definitely count it as, at least, "doesn't depreciate in value nearly as much as cars are expected to".
      - feifan 5y ago
        To be fair, I think that's more attributable to the secular trend around car prices recently (car prices across the board are up because of chip shortages and buying demand from rental companies) rather than anything specific to Tesla. But, re "there is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal" — I agree, but that doesn't mean you can just categorically ignore _all_ information about Tesla.
AdrianB1 5y ago
One battery for the lifetime of the car is dramatically reducing the car's life (me looking at my 21 year old car).
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The average car lifespan, however, is a little over half that, and plausibly within the lifespan expectations of current battery tech.
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    In Eastern Europe the average car age is 12 to 14 years. Average, not max. Most cars run on the streets around 20 years.
blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Both ICE and EV vehicles require a lot of GHG emissions to produce[1][2] - in the case of an ICE car, that works out to about as much as driving it for its working life. For the EV it's more - but then driving it is associated with much less in the way of emissions, that's sort of the point. Either way, getting rid of a working ICE vehicle that's got life left in it is going to mean all the emissions that stem from its manufacture were for naught (though I'd hope it get sold to someone else who will continue to use it, not scrapped). 1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20... 2: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/11/viral-image/producing-electric-cars-battery-does-not-emit-same/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/11/viral-imag...

by feifan 5y ago

hogFeast 5y ago

No, I am not. I didn't mention a flow. You seem to be assuming I said something I did not. The battery has a life of ~120k miles, constructing the battery (and often, but not always, the electricity used to charge it) is so polluting that ICE cars will typically pollute less over that same period of usage. That is what I am saying: nothing about stocks or flows. The difference in pollution is, if it exists, very marginal. EDIT: I will add, look at how cobalt is mined...it is a slave commodity from the Congo, no rules, no environmental laws...same for many other constituents of the battery.

feifan 5y ago
> The battery has a life of ~120k miles … This appears to be untrue. High-mileage Teslas are showing about 10% range degradation after ~250kms on the odometer: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/#jp-carousel-65298 https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep... Notably, this isn't about Tesla specifically — the broader point is that the technology exists for mass-market car batteries to support many hundreds of thousands of miles/kms within a reasonable lifespan of the battery.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  Tesla warranty for 100-150k (depending on model). There is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal (and not really worth arguing about, just crazy stuff like: Teslas will appreciate in value).
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Cars are typically warrantied for 3 years (or 6 years for the drivetrain), what does this have to do with expected lifespan?
  - filoleg 5y ago
    > There is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal (and not really worth arguing about, just crazy stuff like: Teslas will appreciate in value). How is this not real? This is literally something I can observe myself. I bought a new Model 3 LR AWD in 2019, and when I look for used listings for the same model right now, the exact same models from 2019 with about 22-30k mileage on them cost as much as what I paid for the new one 2 years ago. Sure, you might say it didn't appreciate since it costs just as much. But imo, when a used car with solid mileage 2 years later costs as much as the new one with zero mileage did 2 years ago, I would definitely count it as, at least, "doesn't depreciate in value nearly as much as cars are expected to".
    - feifan 5y ago
      To be fair, I think that's more attributable to the secular trend around car prices recently (car prices across the board are up because of chip shortages and buying demand from rental companies) rather than anything specific to Tesla. But, re "there is so much misinformation about Tesla it is unreal" — I agree, but that doesn't mean you can just categorically ignore _all_ information about Tesla.

AdrianB1 5y ago

One battery for the lifetime of the car is dramatically reducing the car's life (me looking at my 21 year old car).

rootusrootus 5y ago
The average car lifespan, however, is a little over half that, and plausibly within the lifespan expectations of current battery tech.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  In Eastern Europe the average car age is 12 to 14 years. Average, not max. Most cars run on the streets around 20 years.

blacksmith_tb 5y ago

Both ICE and EV vehicles require a lot of GHG emissions to produce[1][2] - in the case of an ICE car, that works out to about as much as driving it for its working life. For the EV it's more - but then driving it is associated with much less in the way of emissions, that's sort of the point. Either way, getting rid of a working ICE vehicle that's got life left in it is going to mean all the emissions that stem from its manufacture were for naught (though I'd hope it get sold to someone else who will continue to use it, not scrapped). 1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20... 2: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/11/viral-image/producing-electric-cars-battery-does-not-emit-same/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/11/viral-imag...