43 ms·

G20 states subsidised fossil fuels by $3T since 2015, says report

43 points by voisin 5y ago

gradschool 5y ago
Figures like these always imply some fun facts. $3 trillion in 6 years is about $15,800 per second. 3 trillion dollar bills laid end to end the long way (6.14") can wrap around the Earth's equator (24901 miles) 11675 times, forming a four foot high wall of dollar bills separating the northern and southern hemispheres (at 0.0043" thick per dollar). If 3 trillion dollar bills are laid end to end in a straight line, it takes a ray of light 26 minutes to get from one end to the other. At 2.61" in width per dollar, 3 trillion dollars occupy 119 million cubic feet, or enough to fill 50198 standard 40 foot shipping containers (each with an interior volume of 2383 cubic feet), so I guess a freight train carrying all that money would have to be at least 380 miles long. (corrections welcome)
hackeraccount 5y ago
That's all? That surprises me.
MattGaiser 5y ago
A lot of the "subsidies" are just deductions available to businesses in general, like tax credits for research and development or not being double taxed on foreign income. [0] I have even seen the deductibility of interest included in these reports. The others are externality calculations. Important, but really what they are asking for is extra taxes and calling it a subsidy when no money is being spent. [0] http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2021/06/End-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-letter_final.pdf http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2021/06/End-Fossil-Fue... Are there a large number of oil and gas specific subsidies?
- jdavis703 5y ago
  It depends on how one defines subsidies. But yes at least in the US there are a few that are very particular to the resource extraction industry (which obviously includes “green tech” activities such as rare earth mining.) https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Good find. Thanks.
- lateobserver 5y ago
  Correct, that's tax breaks that apply to any company. No, fossil fuels aren't subsidised. People consume them because they are the most efficient.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  It seems like the vast majority of this "subsidy" is the untaxed externality. I absolutely agree that a carbon tax is needed, but it's pretty slimy to redefine the word subsidy like they have.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    See the other comment. Direct subsidy seems to be 20 billion a year.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  This feels like a rebuttal, but it's not clear to me what you're trying to say. That a subsidy isn't a subsidy if it is given to more than one defined group? That tax breaks aren't subsidies? That cutting subsidies on something has a similar impact as raising taxes? That raising taxes on things you want to discourage is bad? Or ineffective?
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    When I first read these reports, I got the impression that oil and gas was getting cash from the government or specific tax breaks. That 3T in tax dollars was collected and using a narrow definition of subsidy, paid to them or using a wider definition of it, fairly specific tax breaks. My thinking was that the government was actively supporting oil and gas over solar. Really what most of the 3T is consists of general business deductions that any business can get and negative externality calculations.
- fourthwaveska 5y ago
  Damn. Maybe I should tell the IRS that I’m an oil company instead of an expat.
boplicity 5y ago
We have 609 billion tons left to emit [1] before we're screwed. Amazing to think that subsidies are going towards spending that budget, as opposed to making sure we save it (and ourselves). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2017/jan/19/carbon-countdown-clock-how-much-of-the-worlds-carbon-budget-have-we-spent https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2017/jan/19...
shrubble 5y ago
Is it just me, or is there no link to the actual study this article mentions?
- magnio 5y ago
  Such articles are so annoying. Here are the actual report[0] and the press release from Bloomberg.[1] [0]: https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Climate-Policy-Factbook_FINAL.pdf https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Climate-P... [1]: https://about.bnef.com/blog/new-report-finds-g-20-member-countries-support-fossil-fuels-at-levels-untenable-to-achieve-paris-agreement-goals/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/new-report-finds-g-20-member-cou...
whatshisface 5y ago
Few people realize this, but the US government actually subsidizes a specific McDonalds in Odesa to the tune of $1M/year. The calculation is simple: in my ideal policy regime, that specific McDonalds would be $1M/year less profitable. I think we can all agree that it's ridiculous for the government to subsidize specific McDonalds restaurants. Consequently we should adopt my policies.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  That McDonalds is such a blight on the street that having to look at it causes a million dollars in decreased happiness.
- thescriptkiddie 5y ago
  Is this sarcasm, or is there an actual fast food restaurant in a Ukrainian beach town that is subsidized by the feds as a relic of some cold war era propaganda campaign?
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Sarcasm as the reason there is a million dollar subsidy is his imagined policy regime.
- xxpor 5y ago
  Odesa, UA or Odessa, TX?
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I'll go with Odesa because that adds more flavor to the analogy.
lateobserver 5y ago
Energy is heavily taxed. On all stages. Upstream royalties, licensing, retail gasoline, retail electricity. Around 3% of GDP is taxes to fossil energy. Assuming a yearly GDP of 70 trillion for the G20, that's more than 10 trillion USD paid in taxes since 2015, from fossil fuels to the governments. A sweet deal for governments!
Proven 5y ago
Another example of climatist spam from Guardian. > Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil. European Union subsidies are estimated to total 55 billion euros annually. Source: https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs... In the US coal is gone, so let's say that's $70 bn/year or $420 bn since 2015 for these two very big markets. Are we to believe that China, India and other places subsidized fossil fuels with $2.58 tn since 2015? If yes, please tell us how what's being done about 85% of fossil fuel subsidies? Nothing is done and nothing will be done, but also in all likelihood that "report" is fake news.

43 points by voisin 5y ago

Figures like these always imply some fun facts. $3 trillion in 6 years is about $15,800 per second. 3 trillion dollar bills laid end to end the long way (6.14") can wrap around the Earth's equator (24901 miles) 11675 times, forming a four foot high wall of dollar bills separating the northern and southern hemispheres (at 0.0043" thick per dollar). If 3 trillion dollar bills are laid end to end in a straight line, it takes a ray of light 26 minutes to get from one end to the other. At 2.61" in width per dollar, 3 trillion dollars occupy 119 million cubic feet, or enough to fill 50198 standard 40 foot shipping containers (each with an interior volume of 2383 cubic feet), so I guess a freight train carrying all that money would have to be at least 380 miles long. (corrections welcome)

hackeraccount 5y ago

That's all? That surprises me.

MattGaiser 5y ago

A lot of the "subsidies" are just deductions available to businesses in general, like tax credits for research and development or not being double taxed on foreign income. [0] I have even seen the deductibility of interest included in these reports. The others are externality calculations. Important, but really what they are asking for is extra taxes and calling it a subsidy when no money is being spent. [0] http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2021/06/End-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-letter_final.pdf http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2021/06/End-Fossil-Fue... Are there a large number of oil and gas specific subsidies?

jdavis703 5y ago
It depends on how one defines subsidies. But yes at least in the US there are a few that are very particular to the resource extraction industry (which obviously includes “green tech” activities such as rare earth mining.) https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Good find. Thanks.
lateobserver 5y ago
Correct, that's tax breaks that apply to any company. No, fossil fuels aren't subsidised. People consume them because they are the most efficient.
colinmhayes 5y ago
It seems like the vast majority of this "subsidy" is the untaxed externality. I absolutely agree that a carbon tax is needed, but it's pretty slimy to redefine the word subsidy like they have.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  See the other comment. Direct subsidy seems to be 20 billion a year.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
This feels like a rebuttal, but it's not clear to me what you're trying to say. That a subsidy isn't a subsidy if it is given to more than one defined group? That tax breaks aren't subsidies? That cutting subsidies on something has a similar impact as raising taxes? That raising taxes on things you want to discourage is bad? Or ineffective?
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  When I first read these reports, I got the impression that oil and gas was getting cash from the government or specific tax breaks. That 3T in tax dollars was collected and using a narrow definition of subsidy, paid to them or using a wider definition of it, fairly specific tax breaks. My thinking was that the government was actively supporting oil and gas over solar. Really what most of the 3T is consists of general business deductions that any business can get and negative externality calculations.
fourthwaveska 5y ago
Damn. Maybe I should tell the IRS that I’m an oil company instead of an expat.

boplicity 5y ago

We have 609 billion tons left to emit [1] before we're screwed. Amazing to think that subsidies are going towards spending that budget, as opposed to making sure we save it (and ourselves). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2017/jan/19/carbon-countdown-clock-how-much-of-the-worlds-carbon-budget-have-we-spent https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2017/jan/19...

shrubble 5y ago

Is it just me, or is there no link to the actual study this article mentions?

magnio 5y ago
Such articles are so annoying. Here are the actual report[0] and the press release from Bloomberg.[1] [0]: https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Climate-Policy-Factbook_FINAL.pdf https://assets.bbhub.io/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Climate-P... [1]: https://about.bnef.com/blog/new-report-finds-g-20-member-countries-support-fossil-fuels-at-levels-untenable-to-achieve-paris-agreement-goals/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/new-report-finds-g-20-member-cou...

whatshisface 5y ago

Few people realize this, but the US government actually subsidizes a specific McDonalds in Odesa to the tune of $1M/year. The calculation is simple: in my ideal policy regime, that specific McDonalds would be $1M/year less profitable. I think we can all agree that it's ridiculous for the government to subsidize specific McDonalds restaurants. Consequently we should adopt my policies.

MattGaiser 5y ago
That McDonalds is such a blight on the street that having to look at it causes a million dollars in decreased happiness.
thescriptkiddie 5y ago
Is this sarcasm, or is there an actual fast food restaurant in a Ukrainian beach town that is subsidized by the feds as a relic of some cold war era propaganda campaign?
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Sarcasm as the reason there is a million dollar subsidy is his imagined policy regime.
xxpor 5y ago
Odesa, UA or Odessa, TX?
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I'll go with Odesa because that adds more flavor to the analogy.

lateobserver 5y ago

Energy is heavily taxed. On all stages. Upstream royalties, licensing, retail gasoline, retail electricity. Around 3% of GDP is taxes to fossil energy. Assuming a yearly GDP of 70 trillion for the G20, that's more than 10 trillion USD paid in taxes since 2015, from fossil fuels to the governments. A sweet deal for governments!

Proven 5y ago

Another example of climatist spam from Guardian. > Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil. European Union subsidies are estimated to total 55 billion euros annually. Source: https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs... In the US coal is gone, so let's say that's $70 bn/year or $420 bn since 2015 for these two very big markets. Are we to believe that China, India and other places subsidized fossil fuels with $2.58 tn since 2015? If yes, please tell us how what's being done about 85% of fossil fuel subsidies? Nothing is done and nothing will be done, but also in all likelihood that "report" is fake news.