7 ms·

I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're alm

I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're almost definitely wrong. Perhaps it feels a little strange from the outside that such a subculture is definitively "black" but yeah, that's basically how things are in the US. The country has a deep history of racism and black people being literal slaves, in that context it isn't surprising that a distinct culture developed. But I don't think the divide is anywhere near as insane as you're imagining. People don't just belong to one culture and ignore any external infulence. Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc. people all watch the NBA, NFL, watch Marvel superhero movies, so on and so forth. It's just that everyone also has additional niches.

bgroat 5y ago
I used to believe that media representation didn't matter. After all, fictional characters are fiction, why should I expect them to look like me? Then someone pointed out to me that my favourite super-hero was Spider-Man because Peter Parker is a 20-something loser, just like me.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Miles Morales is one of the most successful new Marvel characters too. But there's something authentic about Miles when other characters feel like pandering. ---- Nick Fury Junior is technically a newer character. (The original Nick Fury Senior is white). They just handwaved the difference by sticking a junior in the name without elaboration though. ------ Black Panther from the 70s is definitely pandering lol. But the writers were good at it. (Blatant pandering isn't necessarily a bad thing in the right context)
- mc32 5y ago
  Yeah people used to say video games and violence on TV had no effect on people -that is was just made up worlds and allowed people to role play, etc… now they are admitting there is influence and it does affect people…
  - upgrejd 5y ago
    How does it influence real life?
  - aerovistae 5y ago
    And as time has passed they've found more and more that they were wrong -- where on earth is this comment coming from. Seen so many sources contradicting this over the years.
  - jonhohle 5y ago
    As a teen in the early 90s, I distinctly remember significant campaigns against violence represented in TV, movies, video games, and music. There were several congressional hearings demonizing Mortal Kombat, rap music, Doom, etc. Now as a parent with a tween and younger kids, my understanding of the current state of the science is that there still is no overwhelming consensus on increased violence related to media, however it seems to be agreed that aggression is linked. 30 years later Mortal Kombat is the number one fighting game franchise of all time, and murder rates are lower and violent crime are relatively unchanged.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > 30 years later Mortal Kombat is the number one fighting game franchise of all time Smash Bros and Street Fighter are probably more popular actually. Mortal Kombat really, really sucked between 3 and 7. MK started to get good again around 8, but really it was "Injustice" (which used Mortal Kombat's engine) that made people start taking MK seriously again. MK9 is a modern, competitive fighter. But its not as well respected as other games: Street Fighter, Tekken, Smash Bros even. Japan has a real arcade scene (or at least, it did before COVID19 struck), so the games that have proven themselves in the public arcades are more fundamentally competitive than American games like MK9 or Killer Instinct. I dunno how Smash Bros became so popular though. ---------- Honestly, the extreme violence of Mortal Kombat is a big turnoff to the competitive crowd IMO (much like the extreme "sexiness" of Dead or Alive is also a turnoff). Its good for carving out a niche, but... I don't think people actually like seeing the characters they attach themselves to die. ----------- There was a study I saw: its not that violent video games cause violence. Its that violent individuals choose violent video games. In a mainstream setting, you'll just gross people out with a lot of the Mortal Kombat stuff. I think kids like it (because they like seeing their parents get grossed out). Otherwise, when adults get together to play fighting games... "Injustice" seems to be more popular than Mortal Kombat, despite Mortal Kombat being the mainline game and Injustice the DC-superhero "skin". --------- Now that I'm an adult, here's my viewpoint on the whole thing. Children like breaking taboos. Adults don't like it when Children break taboos (children should listen to Adults). I feel like Adults sometimes make up stories for why children should listen to them, but this only encourages more taboo-breaking behavior from kids. That's why Mortal Kombat is such a draw for me when I was younger (I knew my parents didn't like it, but that was part of the charm). Similarly, I see my sister freak out about her daughter playing Mortal Kombat (despite me and my sister playing MK back when we were her age) and turn off the game. My sister claims that the improved graphics make it different... but my eyes see the same thing. Her daughter likes breaking taboos and sometimes not listening to her mom, and playing MK is an avenue to do so.
- bxjaii 5y ago
  90% of American men feel like losers. Nothing special about that. Life is boring and hard.
throwaway2037 5y ago
You wrote: <<<I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're almost definitely wrong.>>> Agree. I could imagine Netflix-for-Turks streaming in Europe for overseas Turks!
- jandrese 5y ago
  Or a Netflix for Gypsys. I've always found it amazing how many Europeans will berate Americans for their discrimination and then turn around and talk about how to best get rid of Gypsys that show up.
  - throwaway2037 5y ago
    I heard it is better to say Roma people now, instead of Gypsys. What do you think? (My old co-worker was from Romania and explained it to me. And I have see positive propaganda adverts in Italy explaining the same.)
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Or literally sterilize them.
    - anthk 5y ago
      So just like the US against Latin people until very recently. Or Canada. But not under a fascism regime like Franco, but under a self-called democracy, which is far worse.
  - playcache 5y ago
    Everyone feels for the plight of the Gypsies, right up until they move caravans onto the park behind your house.
    - anthk 5y ago
      Or Gypsy women themselves fed up of their own backwards machoist culture. Most well educated gypsies are being frowned down by their own relatives as if they became "non-Gypsy traitors" and they often run away from their own ghettos to never, ever come back. That never happened in the US with Black people, even in the worst racist laws in the 50's. They even tried to live with the same rights as the White people. Gypsy people in Europe, at least the tribalistic ones want to secede from the society, as a reverse MLK and live by their own rules, having those priority over state laws.
ethbr0 5y ago
It depends on where parent is from. There are a lot of relatively monolithic countries from an ethnic perspective. To the broader point, I think what Uzo is talking about is "representation." Which doesn't just mean "some type of person on the screen." It means the full diversity of experiences and aspirations of that type of person... on the screen. Living Single isn't Friends with African Americans. It's African Americans put in the situation of Friends, and then living their own similar-but-unique story in that situation, informed by cultural differences. (IMHO, it's also a helluva lot better of a show) The 90s had a lot of shows about middle class, successful African American families. That kind of... stopped. Once TV got homogenized and distributors realized that African American viewers would watch shows about white people, but white people weren't as happy watching shows about African Americans. And the lack of aspirational and affirmational media that speaks to every person is absolutely a problem.
- Uzo0312 5y ago
  I couldn't agree more! You want to do PR for us?
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Not sure I'm a good fit, but if you want a younger voice I've got a precocious 13 year old daughter... ;) Eth bro dot co at gmail
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  For what it's worth, the "homogenized" also means that the "white people TV shows" don't represent white people but rather a sort of lowest-common-denominator that can appeal broadly but not accurately represent anyone including white folks (except perhaps some SoCal types). They happened to feature white actors/actresses, but recent efforts to diversify casts haven't manifested in an improvement in quality.
- brodouevencode 5y ago
  > It's African Americans put in the situation of Friends, and then living their own similar-but-unique story in that situation, informed by cultural differences. (IMHO, it's also a helluva lot better of a show) Living Single was a good show because, unlike Friends, it was actually funny. > That kind of... stopped. Once TV got homogenized and distributors realized that African American viewers would watch shows about white people, but white people weren't as happy watching shows about African Americans. But let's be nuanced about this - I don't think that skin color is the real case. Everyone watched Cosby (and for the sake of discussion let's ignore the current situation with him). My (white) heavily bigoted/borderline racist grandmother watched Cosby. He was America's dad and loved by everyone. I think the real problem was that black characters weren't put into shows that represented widely popular, aspirational American ideals or lifestyles, which Cosby had (nuclear family with professional parents and kids dealing with kid stuff). If you want to say that really doesn't represent the majority of the black American experience you wouldn't be wrong, but it also doesn't represent the majority of the white/Hispanic/Asian American experience either. It was something to aspire to. Those sorts of mass-appeal western values-type shows, IMHO, will be some of the best bridges to build in regards to race relations.
spaniard89277 5y ago
> I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're almost definitely wrong What constitutes under-repressented? Is proportionally represented ok? I mean, I'm one of those "subcultures" and honestly I don't feel the need to be represented in media. I'm ok with it, but I don't see what does it bring to me or to my "subculture". We need investment in infraestructure and political-institutional changes. I understand it's your country, so your own to decide but I agree with the other user, I really can't understand why so much focus with media representation in the US. It feels weird, and honestly the logic behind it comes as very superficial and light-minded.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > What constitutes under-repressented? Is proportionally represented ok? Reminds me of an article a while back complaining that Muslim characters were underrepresented in film despite being 2X proportion, meanwhile Christian characters in film are rarely represented (and secular characters wildly over-represented). When identifiably Muslim and Christian characters are portrayed in film, they are frequently villains (Muslims being terrorists and Christians being bigots, typically) and when they aren't villains they are fundamentally secular but maybe they wear a cross necklace or feature prominently in a corny Christmas special (e.g., Turk from Scrubs). Anyway, this is all a tangent, sorry for the digression, etc.
- jhcxdfb 5y ago
  Well, some Americans, like myself, have hoped that the vision of the melting pot would come to pass instead of this new segregation movement. But it seems that the Woke movement wants us to resegregate: don't share culture, that's cultural appropriation. Don't move to an area that isn't your racial makeup, that's gentrification. Don't hire people who are white, if you can help it. That's inclusion. Create institutions, like TV channels, only for specific races. That's diversity. Pass lots of "stimulus" bills to trigger inflation through printing money, causing everyone from the middle to the bottom to get poorer, but the same amount of poor by the end of it. That's equity.
  - 5y ago
f6v 5y ago
I haven’t lived in a society with such a tragic racial history as in US. So my intuition tells me socioeconomic class is more relevant than the race. If I’m a white UPS driver, I have more in common with a black DHL driver than with a white physician. Like, working people go to the same restaurants, shops and have the same struggles overall. But then again, I’ve seen all the news about the BLM protests and I realize I know nothing about how society is structured in the US.
itsoktocry 5y ago
>I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented Where do you draw the line in your definition of "subcultures"? Is it Black/White/Brown? I always feel weird that I'm pigeon-holed into "white", as if I have anything in common with those of Italian or Jewish ancestry. >The country has a deep history of racism and black people being literal slaves The USA is astoundingly multi-cultural. Why do you think so many people from around the globe try to get there?
bxjaii 5y ago
That’s because Hollywood and American corporations are a systemically corrupt system. Why not just create a hip / fresh / cool network? Identifying it with race is a violation of societal primitives. I like “black content” even though many black creators are not 100% black. A lot of white people have direct African heritage. And of course, EVERYONE’s grandparents are ultimately from Ethiopia. My ancestors left Northern Africa before a black person’s did, thus I’m different than them?! And the world is deeply racist. Mexico is ran by all light skinned people with Spanish heritage. Russia, Japan and all of the Middle East is way more racist than the US. Very dark skinned people are discriminated all over the world including in the US by black communities. Sam Harris had a great podcast on how race is a myth- https://samharris.org/subscriber-extras/182-unlearning-race https://samharris.org/subscriber-extras/182-unlearning-race
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
masterof0 5y ago
Nah, in the US is pretty bad, I have lived in Europe for a long time, and in Asia for a few years, we, here in the US make sure you understand your place, as a x (black, latino, asian, white, .....) Everything you do, from applying for a job , to getting your kids in school, requires you to write your race in a piece of paper. You get all the time , this product X for that race, that other thing Z for this other race, etc... Is like you are not Juan, you are the Mexican guy that lives here. And obviously you get labeled with all the stereotypes as well. If you are white(or any other race), and you feel sorry for other races, maybe just leaving them alone is a start, and stop classifying us like dog breeds.

bgroat 5y ago

I used to believe that media representation didn't matter. After all, fictional characters are fiction, why should I expect them to look like me? Then someone pointed out to me that my favourite super-hero was Spider-Man because Peter Parker is a 20-something loser, just like me.

dragontamer 5y ago
Miles Morales is one of the most successful new Marvel characters too. But there's something authentic about Miles when other characters feel like pandering. ---- Nick Fury Junior is technically a newer character. (The original Nick Fury Senior is white). They just handwaved the difference by sticking a junior in the name without elaboration though. ------ Black Panther from the 70s is definitely pandering lol. But the writers were good at it. (Blatant pandering isn't necessarily a bad thing in the right context)
mc32 5y ago
Yeah people used to say video games and violence on TV had no effect on people -that is was just made up worlds and allowed people to role play, etc… now they are admitting there is influence and it does affect people…
- upgrejd 5y ago
  How does it influence real life?
- aerovistae 5y ago
  And as time has passed they've found more and more that they were wrong -- where on earth is this comment coming from. Seen so many sources contradicting this over the years.
- jonhohle 5y ago
  As a teen in the early 90s, I distinctly remember significant campaigns against violence represented in TV, movies, video games, and music. There were several congressional hearings demonizing Mortal Kombat, rap music, Doom, etc. Now as a parent with a tween and younger kids, my understanding of the current state of the science is that there still is no overwhelming consensus on increased violence related to media, however it seems to be agreed that aggression is linked. 30 years later Mortal Kombat is the number one fighting game franchise of all time, and murder rates are lower and violent crime are relatively unchanged.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > 30 years later Mortal Kombat is the number one fighting game franchise of all time Smash Bros and Street Fighter are probably more popular actually. Mortal Kombat really, really sucked between 3 and 7. MK started to get good again around 8, but really it was "Injustice" (which used Mortal Kombat's engine) that made people start taking MK seriously again. MK9 is a modern, competitive fighter. But its not as well respected as other games: Street Fighter, Tekken, Smash Bros even. Japan has a real arcade scene (or at least, it did before COVID19 struck), so the games that have proven themselves in the public arcades are more fundamentally competitive than American games like MK9 or Killer Instinct. I dunno how Smash Bros became so popular though. ---------- Honestly, the extreme violence of Mortal Kombat is a big turnoff to the competitive crowd IMO (much like the extreme "sexiness" of Dead or Alive is also a turnoff). Its good for carving out a niche, but... I don't think people actually like seeing the characters they attach themselves to die. ----------- There was a study I saw: its not that violent video games cause violence. Its that violent individuals choose violent video games. In a mainstream setting, you'll just gross people out with a lot of the Mortal Kombat stuff. I think kids like it (because they like seeing their parents get grossed out). Otherwise, when adults get together to play fighting games... "Injustice" seems to be more popular than Mortal Kombat, despite Mortal Kombat being the mainline game and Injustice the DC-superhero "skin". --------- Now that I'm an adult, here's my viewpoint on the whole thing. Children like breaking taboos. Adults don't like it when Children break taboos (children should listen to Adults). I feel like Adults sometimes make up stories for why children should listen to them, but this only encourages more taboo-breaking behavior from kids. That's why Mortal Kombat is such a draw for me when I was younger (I knew my parents didn't like it, but that was part of the charm). Similarly, I see my sister freak out about her daughter playing Mortal Kombat (despite me and my sister playing MK back when we were her age) and turn off the game. My sister claims that the improved graphics make it different... but my eyes see the same thing. Her daughter likes breaking taboos and sometimes not listening to her mom, and playing MK is an avenue to do so.
bxjaii 5y ago
90% of American men feel like losers. Nothing special about that. Life is boring and hard.

throwaway2037 5y ago

You wrote: <<<I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're almost definitely wrong.>>> Agree. I could imagine Netflix-for-Turks streaming in Europe for overseas Turks!

jandrese 5y ago
Or a Netflix for Gypsys. I've always found it amazing how many Europeans will berate Americans for their discrimination and then turn around and talk about how to best get rid of Gypsys that show up.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  I heard it is better to say Roma people now, instead of Gypsys. What do you think? (My old co-worker was from Romania and explained it to me. And I have see positive propaganda adverts in Italy explaining the same.)
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Or literally sterilize them.
  - anthk 5y ago
    So just like the US against Latin people until very recently. Or Canada. But not under a fascism regime like Franco, but under a self-called democracy, which is far worse.
- playcache 5y ago
  Everyone feels for the plight of the Gypsies, right up until they move caravans onto the park behind your house.
  - anthk 5y ago
    Or Gypsy women themselves fed up of their own backwards machoist culture. Most well educated gypsies are being frowned down by their own relatives as if they became "non-Gypsy traitors" and they often run away from their own ghettos to never, ever come back. That never happened in the US with Black people, even in the worst racist laws in the 50's. They even tried to live with the same rights as the White people. Gypsy people in Europe, at least the tribalistic ones want to secede from the society, as a reverse MLK and live by their own rules, having those priority over state laws.

ethbr0 5y ago

It depends on where parent is from. There are a lot of relatively monolithic countries from an ethnic perspective. To the broader point, I think what Uzo is talking about is "representation." Which doesn't just mean "some type of person on the screen." It means the full diversity of experiences and aspirations of that type of person... on the screen. Living Single isn't Friends with African Americans. It's African Americans put in the situation of Friends, and then living their own similar-but-unique story in that situation, informed by cultural differences. (IMHO, it's also a helluva lot better of a show) The 90s had a lot of shows about middle class, successful African American families. That kind of... stopped. Once TV got homogenized and distributors realized that African American viewers would watch shows about white people, but white people weren't as happy watching shows about African Americans. And the lack of aspirational and affirmational media that speaks to every person is absolutely a problem.

Uzo0312 5y ago
I couldn't agree more! You want to do PR for us?
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Not sure I'm a good fit, but if you want a younger voice I've got a precocious 13 year old daughter... ;) Eth bro dot co at gmail
throwaway894345 5y ago
For what it's worth, the "homogenized" also means that the "white people TV shows" don't represent white people but rather a sort of lowest-common-denominator that can appeal broadly but not accurately represent anyone including white folks (except perhaps some SoCal types). They happened to feature white actors/actresses, but recent efforts to diversify casts haven't manifested in an improvement in quality.
brodouevencode 5y ago
> It's African Americans put in the situation of Friends, and then living their own similar-but-unique story in that situation, informed by cultural differences. (IMHO, it's also a helluva lot better of a show) Living Single was a good show because, unlike Friends, it was actually funny. > That kind of... stopped. Once TV got homogenized and distributors realized that African American viewers would watch shows about white people, but white people weren't as happy watching shows about African Americans. But let's be nuanced about this - I don't think that skin color is the real case. Everyone watched Cosby (and for the sake of discussion let's ignore the current situation with him). My (white) heavily bigoted/borderline racist grandmother watched Cosby. He was America's dad and loved by everyone. I think the real problem was that black characters weren't put into shows that represented widely popular, aspirational American ideals or lifestyles, which Cosby had (nuclear family with professional parents and kids dealing with kid stuff). If you want to say that really doesn't represent the majority of the black American experience you wouldn't be wrong, but it also doesn't represent the majority of the white/Hispanic/Asian American experience either. It was something to aspire to. Those sorts of mass-appeal western values-type shows, IMHO, will be some of the best bridges to build in regards to race relations.

spaniard89277 5y ago

> I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented by the dominant media I'd assert you're almost definitely wrong What constitutes under-repressented? Is proportionally represented ok? I mean, I'm one of those "subcultures" and honestly I don't feel the need to be represented in media. I'm ok with it, but I don't see what does it bring to me or to my "subculture". We need investment in infraestructure and political-institutional changes. I understand it's your country, so your own to decide but I agree with the other user, I really can't understand why so much focus with media representation in the US. It feels weird, and honestly the logic behind it comes as very superficial and light-minded.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> What constitutes under-repressented? Is proportionally represented ok? Reminds me of an article a while back complaining that Muslim characters were underrepresented in film despite being 2X proportion, meanwhile Christian characters in film are rarely represented (and secular characters wildly over-represented). When identifiably Muslim and Christian characters are portrayed in film, they are frequently villains (Muslims being terrorists and Christians being bigots, typically) and when they aren't villains they are fundamentally secular but maybe they wear a cross necklace or feature prominently in a corny Christmas special (e.g., Turk from Scrubs). Anyway, this is all a tangent, sorry for the digression, etc.
jhcxdfb 5y ago
Well, some Americans, like myself, have hoped that the vision of the melting pot would come to pass instead of this new segregation movement. But it seems that the Woke movement wants us to resegregate: don't share culture, that's cultural appropriation. Don't move to an area that isn't your racial makeup, that's gentrification. Don't hire people who are white, if you can help it. That's inclusion. Create institutions, like TV channels, only for specific races. That's diversity. Pass lots of "stimulus" bills to trigger inflation through printing money, causing everyone from the middle to the bottom to get poorer, but the same amount of poor by the end of it. That's equity.
- 5y ago

f6v 5y ago

I haven’t lived in a society with such a tragic racial history as in US. So my intuition tells me socioeconomic class is more relevant than the race. If I’m a white UPS driver, I have more in common with a black DHL driver than with a white physician. Like, working people go to the same restaurants, shops and have the same struggles overall. But then again, I’ve seen all the news about the BLM protests and I realize I know nothing about how society is structured in the US.

itsoktocry 5y ago

>I don't know what country you're from but if you don't think there are subcultures in your country under-represented Where do you draw the line in your definition of "subcultures"? Is it Black/White/Brown? I always feel weird that I'm pigeon-holed into "white", as if I have anything in common with those of Italian or Jewish ancestry. >The country has a deep history of racism and black people being literal slaves The USA is astoundingly multi-cultural. Why do you think so many people from around the globe try to get there?

bxjaii 5y ago

That’s because Hollywood and American corporations are a systemically corrupt system. Why not just create a hip / fresh / cool network? Identifying it with race is a violation of societal primitives. I like “black content” even though many black creators are not 100% black. A lot of white people have direct African heritage. And of course, EVERYONE’s grandparents are ultimately from Ethiopia. My ancestors left Northern Africa before a black person’s did, thus I’m different than them?! And the world is deeply racist. Mexico is ran by all light skinned people with Spanish heritage. Russia, Japan and all of the Middle East is way more racist than the US. Very dark skinned people are discriminated all over the world including in the US by black communities. Sam Harris had a great podcast on how race is a myth- https://samharris.org/subscriber-extras/182-unlearning-race https://samharris.org/subscriber-extras/182-unlearning-race

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

masterof0 5y ago

Nah, in the US is pretty bad, I have lived in Europe for a long time, and in Asia for a few years, we, here in the US make sure you understand your place, as a x (black, latino, asian, white, .....) Everything you do, from applying for a job , to getting your kids in school, requires you to write your race in a piece of paper. You get all the time , this product X for that race, that other thing Z for this other race, etc... Is like you are not Juan, you are the Mexican guy that lives here. And obviously you get labeled with all the stereotypes as well. If you are white(or any other race), and you feel sorry for other races, maybe just leaving them alone is a start, and stop classifying us like dog breeds.