3 ms·

You should maybe read about the work [0], or just read the rest of what I said. Surrealism has nothing to do with the argument I made, so why do you bring it up

by toxik 5y ago

You should maybe read about the work [0], or just read the rest of what I said. Surrealism has nothing to do with the argument I made, so why do you bring it up? CSAM databases can by necessity not contain novel abuses, because they are novel. In fact, filtering by CSAM databases even indirectly /encourage/ novel abuses because these would not be caught by said filter. Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place, and does a lot to harm our integrity and privacy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images

ElFitz 5y ago
> Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place If there is no market for it, there might be less incentive to produce any more of it. Not that I believe we should all be continuously spied by people who merely pinky sweared to do it right and not abuse it.
- toxik 5y ago
  I don't think market forces are what drive the production of CSAM. Rather, it's some weird fetish of child abusers to share their conquests. I'm sure you're aware, but when CP collectors are busted, they often have terabytes upon terabytes of CP. But that's, I think, tangential - I don't understand pedophilia well enough to say something meaningful here.
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    Quite funny: looking for some figures, it seems I wasn’t the first one to do so, and that finding anything even remotely reliable isn't easy at all. See - https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000 - https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/260731-irs-should-take-a-closer-look-at-child-porn-industry-finances https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/260... - http://www.radosh.net/archive/001481.html http://www.radosh.net/archive/001481.html > I'm sure you're aware, but when CP collectors are busted, they often have terabytes upon terabytes of CP. Always appalled me that there is so much of it out there. FFS. For some reason, it reminds me of when the French government decided to spy on BitTorrent networks for copyright infringement (HADOPI). Defense & Interior asked them not to, saying that it would only make their work harder. That some geeks would create and democratise new tools not to be caught downloading some random blockbuster, or even just out of principle, and both child pornographers & terrorists would gladly adopt them in a heartbeat, because while they weren’t necessarily the type capable of creating such tools, they had historically been shown to be proficient enough to use them. Quite hilarious, when you think of it. Some kind of reverse "Think of the Children". We still got HADOPI however, and now any moron has access to and knows how to get a VPN.
donkeyd 5y ago
> Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place This is completely untrue, since hoarders tend to often also be part of groups where images of still unknown abuse circulate. Those images help identify both victims and suspects and in the end help stop abuse.
- lstodd 5y ago
  I sometimes wonder where logic is, if it isn't on HN. Surely if one takes measures against only existing material, and not production of new, this only encourages appearance of new material. For evidence you can look up what happened with synthetic cannabinoids, and how much harm they brought.
  - donkeyd 5y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, but for evidence you can look up Robert Miķelsons, who was an active child predator in the Netherlands. He was identified due to images found on a computer in the US. It ended up leading police to him, which caused him to stop. According to further investigations he abused an estimated 83 children, one of which was abused close to 100 times. Many of the victims were less than 5 years old, some were babies. Without finding the child porn, he would not have been identified and would've victimized many more children.

by toxik 5y ago

ElFitz 5y ago

> Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place If there is no market for it, there might be less incentive to produce any more of it. Not that I believe we should all be continuously spied by people who merely pinky sweared to do it right and not abuse it.

toxik 5y ago
I don't think market forces are what drive the production of CSAM. Rather, it's some weird fetish of child abusers to share their conquests. I'm sure you're aware, but when CP collectors are busted, they often have terabytes upon terabytes of CP. But that's, I think, tangential - I don't understand pedophilia well enough to say something meaningful here.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  Quite funny: looking for some figures, it seems I wasn’t the first one to do so, and that finding anything even remotely reliable isn't easy at all. See - https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000 - https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/260731-irs-should-take-a-closer-look-at-child-porn-industry-finances https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/260... - http://www.radosh.net/archive/001481.html http://www.radosh.net/archive/001481.html > I'm sure you're aware, but when CP collectors are busted, they often have terabytes upon terabytes of CP. Always appalled me that there is so much of it out there. FFS. For some reason, it reminds me of when the French government decided to spy on BitTorrent networks for copyright infringement (HADOPI). Defense & Interior asked them not to, saying that it would only make their work harder. That some geeks would create and democratise new tools not to be caught downloading some random blockbuster, or even just out of principle, and both child pornographers & terrorists would gladly adopt them in a heartbeat, because while they weren’t necessarily the type capable of creating such tools, they had historically been shown to be proficient enough to use them. Quite hilarious, when you think of it. Some kind of reverse "Think of the Children". We still got HADOPI however, and now any moron has access to and knows how to get a VPN.

donkeyd 5y ago

> Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place This is completely untrue, since hoarders tend to often also be part of groups where images of still unknown abuse circulate. Those images help identify both victims and suspects and in the end help stop abuse.

lstodd 5y ago
I sometimes wonder where logic is, if it isn't on HN. Surely if one takes measures against only existing material, and not production of new, this only encourages appearance of new material. For evidence you can look up what happened with synthetic cannabinoids, and how much harm they brought.
- donkeyd 5y ago
  Sorry for the late reply, but for evidence you can look up Robert Miķelsons, who was an active child predator in the Netherlands. He was identified due to images found on a computer in the US. It ended up leading police to him, which caused him to stop. According to further investigations he abused an estimated 83 children, one of which was abused close to 100 times. Many of the victims were less than 5 years old, some were babies. Without finding the child porn, he would not have been identified and would've victimized many more children.