4 ms·

I hate media for research like this. They have a list of things which according to them are bad and could be labelled together according to their political orie

I hate media for research like this. They have a list of things which according to them are bad and could be labelled together according to their political orientation. This is filled with "As I expected, I found this". Is there any point in time that the religion angle came into picture. Can you demonstrate the same for non Muslim terrorist, because whoever comes to mind in this category lived separate life. Not saying all Muslim are abuser, but they certainly create stricter life for females.

WinstonSmith84 5y ago
yep. This reminds me this https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations such as US suicide correlated to US spending on science.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  How is that related?
loopz 5y ago
Knowing the correlation, it may make it easier to understand the reasons behind and how people get recruited into violent cults. If it doesn't generalize well, it may be a dead end though.
southerntofu 5y ago
> demonstrate the same for non Muslim terrorist Yes of course the correlation between patriarchal control and depersonalized violence (terrorism) is established well beyond islam. It's a fact that has been pointed out time and time again by feminist scholars and activists. For example, the Montreal Polytechnique massacre was downplayed/depoliticized by the media as the work of deranged madman, but has long been understood by more pointy spirits to be a political act of femicide. Other examples of this correlation are given in Contrapoint's popular education video about incels, which you can find on Youtube and i cannot recommend enough to understand that mindset. > Muslim (...) certainly create stricter life for females Source? Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc. In fact, it is possible it would be less prevalent with muslims, because muslim expressions of patriarchy are more scrutinized/opposed than the presentable white-rapist-in-a-suit variant that occupies every government, police station and corporation here in the global north. Patriarchy was established long before islam was a thing, and is one of the oldest and most insidious systems of domination. Your statement linking islam specifically to patriarchy seems based on anecdotal data, just like i could produce anecdotal data of muslim feminists proudly dismantling patriarchy.
- kazoomonger 5y ago
  > Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc It seems obvious to me that there's an association there. For example, compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries. > muslim expressions of patriarchy are more scrutinized/opposed Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I don't think that the muslim world cares at all what western countries have to say on the topic, though.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries Yet many muslim countries don't make it compulsory. But you will find regulation of women's dress in most other non-muslim countries, including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. To take another example from my own country, it is highly arguable that police harassing women in burkini to dress less is just as much patriarchal as Iran's moral police harassing women to dress more. > Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I talked about France because that's the situation i know best, from first-hand experiences. However, it's also true on an international level, and there's an entire field of feminist studies dedicating to studying this "imperial feminism" phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism For example, the somewhat-recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have often been portrayed on the international scene as a liberation of women. The same argument was used during the french colonization of Algeria. In fact, not all examples of such pattern claim to be feminist: throughout the history of colonization, "educating" the "less-civilized" people has been a recurring theme.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      > including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. You surely know that this is one of this silly law that was in place but nobody even thought of enforcing it (of they knew about it at all). It is like the law in some US city where b it is forbidden to attach a giraffe to a lamp pole. I presume you are French. If so, can you state that the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles I mentioned earlier?
sofixa 5y ago
Why do you "hate media for research like this"? This is an opinion piece by > Joan Smith is the author of Home Grown: How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists and co-chair of the mayor of London’s Violence Against Women and Girls board > This is filled with "As I expected, I found this". A person who saw a correlation, was dismissed when sharing it with experts, and wrote a book to examine the data. It's kind of expected when they're literally writing a book to prove what they thought and saw. > Is there any point in time that the religion angle came into picture. Can you demonstrate the same for non Muslim terrorist, because whoever comes to mind in this category lived separate life. Not saying all Muslim are abuser, but they certainly create stricter life for females. There's a paragraph in the beginning that talks about the similarities between a far right terrorist and an Islamist one. Furthermore, there is this part: > As I expected, the link is visible across ideologies, from Islamists and rightwing extremists to the fifth of the sample where no known ideology was identified. This confirms my theory that terrorism is at least as much about male violence as ideology, suggesting that angry young men are attracted to extremist ideas that appear to “justify” their grievances So yes, the author did look at it with a religious and ideological nuances in mind.

WinstonSmith84 5y ago

yep. This reminds me this https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations such as US suicide correlated to US spending on science.

southerntofu 5y ago
How is that related?

loopz 5y ago

Knowing the correlation, it may make it easier to understand the reasons behind and how people get recruited into violent cults. If it doesn't generalize well, it may be a dead end though.

southerntofu 5y ago

> demonstrate the same for non Muslim terrorist Yes of course the correlation between patriarchal control and depersonalized violence (terrorism) is established well beyond islam. It's a fact that has been pointed out time and time again by feminist scholars and activists. For example, the Montreal Polytechnique massacre was downplayed/depoliticized by the media as the work of deranged madman, but has long been understood by more pointy spirits to be a political act of femicide. Other examples of this correlation are given in Contrapoint's popular education video about incels, which you can find on Youtube and i cannot recommend enough to understand that mindset. > Muslim (...) certainly create stricter life for females Source? Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc. In fact, it is possible it would be less prevalent with muslims, because muslim expressions of patriarchy are more scrutinized/opposed than the presentable white-rapist-in-a-suit variant that occupies every government, police station and corporation here in the global north. Patriarchy was established long before islam was a thing, and is one of the oldest and most insidious systems of domination. Your statement linking islam specifically to patriarchy seems based on anecdotal data, just like i could produce anecdotal data of muslim feminists proudly dismantling patriarchy.

kazoomonger 5y ago
> Here in France, i don't know of any evidence that patriarchal control is stricter/stronger in muslims than in atheists/jews/christians/hindus/etc It seems obvious to me that there's an association there. For example, compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries. > muslim expressions of patriarchy are more scrutinized/opposed Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I don't think that the muslim world cares at all what western countries have to say on the topic, though.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > compulsory hijabs only exist in muslim countries Yet many muslim countries don't make it compulsory. But you will find regulation of women's dress in most other non-muslim countries, including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. To take another example from my own country, it is highly arguable that police harassing women in burkini to dress less is just as much patriarchal as Iran's moral police harassing women to dress more. > Maybe in France, towards French muslims. I talked about France because that's the situation i know best, from first-hand experiences. However, it's also true on an international level, and there's an entire field of feminist studies dedicating to studying this "imperial feminism" phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_feminism For example, the somewhat-recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have often been portrayed on the international scene as a liberation of women. The same argument was used during the french colonization of Algeria. In fact, not all examples of such pattern claim to be feminist: throughout the history of colonization, "educating" the "less-civilized" people has been a recurring theme.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    > including in France where despite separation of church and State (at least on paper) in 1905, until at least 2010 it was illegal for women to wear trousers. You surely know that this is one of this silly law that was in place but nobody even thought of enforcing it (of they knew about it at all). It is like the law in some US city where b it is forbidden to attach a giraffe to a lamp pole. I presume you are French. If so, can you state that the freedom of women in a cité is the same as in the proverbial Versailles I mentioned earlier?

sofixa 5y ago

Why do you "hate media for research like this"? This is an opinion piece by > Joan Smith is the author of Home Grown: How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists and co-chair of the mayor of London’s Violence Against Women and Girls board > This is filled with "As I expected, I found this". A person who saw a correlation, was dismissed when sharing it with experts, and wrote a book to examine the data. It's kind of expected when they're literally writing a book to prove what they thought and saw. > Is there any point in time that the religion angle came into picture. Can you demonstrate the same for non Muslim terrorist, because whoever comes to mind in this category lived separate life. Not saying all Muslim are abuser, but they certainly create stricter life for females. There's a paragraph in the beginning that talks about the similarities between a far right terrorist and an Islamist one. Furthermore, there is this part: > As I expected, the link is visible across ideologies, from Islamists and rightwing extremists to the fifth of the sample where no known ideology was identified. This confirms my theory that terrorism is at least as much about male violence as ideology, suggesting that angry young men are attracted to extremist ideas that appear to “justify” their grievances So yes, the author did look at it with a religious and ideological nuances in mind.