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I have never heard the brake and tire argument, but it sounds like the 'batteries are worse for the environment than gas' argument which is not very accurate.

I have never heard the brake and tire argument, but it sounds like the 'batteries are worse for the environment than gas' argument which is not very accurate. Makes you wonder if there are companies who benefit from information such as this being believed. Companies such as Shell maybe? Edit: Not saying it isn't true! Just saying there might be more sides to this.

kebman 5y ago
Tire wear is a matter of friction. Higher weight, higher friction, thus more wear. In this isolated instance, electrical cars are likely to be worse off than regular cars due to generally higher weight. Perhaps this is offset by regenerative breaking systems though. I'm sure you could make that argument on other parts of the EV as well. Outside of isolated areas like that, I would be seriously surprised if electrical cars comes worse off than gasoline cars on the whole. There has been some talk about CO2 emissions made when making hydro electric dams, for instance, but then there's also CO2 emissions when making oil platforms, and so on, so IMHO those kinds of discussions quickly become very theoretical. Either way, I'm sure EV's are better off in terms of local emissions, meaning that they reduce local smog, and so on. On the other hand, EV's can very well run on coal, if that's how your local electricity is produced. In that case, how well EV's do environmentally speaking is due to the total effort made by society. For that reason I'd love to see a comparison of gasoline and diesel versus coal. Which one is the cleanest? AFAIK there are some real issues with the way lithium is mined for the batteries, however, that doesn't strictly involve emissions. So there are many pros and cons in the debate on electric vs gas cars that aren't obvious to the casual on-looker. I don't have a particular horse in this race myself, but I do note that those who do, tend to offer arguments that are more strongly coloured by their preference. Personally environmental safety isn't the only deciding factor. There's also such things as cost and reach. And I don't just mean how many miles a car can run on one tank, but also its longevity. On the whole it seems to me that EV's have a higher capital cost (up front cost), that might not make up for the savings you make by running it. On the whole it seems to me that gasoline cars have far better overall longevity than EV's, with the offset that EV's are cheaper to run, though with slightly more hassle in the "refuelling" department. For me personally, winter cold is an issue, since it severely affects battery capacity. On the other hand, those Teslas do look pretty cool.
- varjag 5y ago
  Brake pads on my Nissan Leaf have lasted 6 years (~90,000 km).
- heresie-dabord 5y ago
  > electrical cars are likely to be worse off than regular cars due to generally higher weight. Given that a Nissan LEAF weighs about the same as a Honda CR-V, and that there are many EVs that have the same weight or are lighter than the Nissan LEAF, I would say that you are considering only a select group of EVs.
  - tk75x 5y ago
    From https://www.easyelectriccars.com/how-much-do-electric-cars-weigh-with-10-examples/ https://www.easyelectriccars.com/how-much-do-electric-cars-w... Here are some examples of popular electric cars and how much they weigh in order of weight: Model X Long Range – 2459 kg without passengers or fuel (7 adult capacity). Tesla Model S Performance – 2241 kg without passengers or cargo (5 adult capacity). Tesla Model S Long Range – 2215 kg without passengers of cargo (5 adult capacity). Model 3 Performance and Long Range AWD – 1847 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Nissan Leaf – 1775 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Chevrolet Bolt – 1616 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Opel/Vauxhall Ampera-E – 1611 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Renault Zoe, 44 kWh – 1480 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Hyundai Kona – 1399 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). BMW i3 – 1343 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Based on this, and the upcoming plans of many automakers to launch pickup truck and SUV type EVs, I would say that a significant portion of EVs will be heavier than the average car on the road currently.
    - heresie-dabord 5y ago
      The EV market is about 2% of car sales in the US. I doubt that we would be right to predict double-digit growth happening suddenly. A Ford F150 (the most popular pick-up truck) weighs about the same as the Tesla Model 3. The top-selling vehicles in the US are all pick-up trucks. The Toyota Camry (a popular sedan) weighs about the same as the Nissan LEAF. The Prius Prime is also in this weight range. A Honda Fit (a popular small car) weight about the same as a Smart EQ. Small cars are not what US consumers are choosing. Your argument is a hypothetical projection of Tesla-class EVs into a very large market-share. In reality, consumers are choosing larger, heavier ICE vehicles.
closeparen 5y ago
It's not a showstopper, because the environmental argument for EVs is CO2 and climate change rather than PM2.5 and air quality. But it's worth bearing in mind that they only solve the former.
- kebman 5y ago
  Don't lower diesel and gasoline emissions matter at all?
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>But it's worth bearing in mind that they only solve the former. That's....almost categorically not true, the PM2.5 emissions should be solved with in ICE cars with inclusion of DPF and GPF filters, but there is plenty of cars without those still on the road. A taxi driver sitting outside of my house at night in his 10 year old Skoda Octavia diesel is definitely contributing to the air pollution around me, and that wouldn't be a problem if he drove an EV or a modern diesel with all the filters functional - but the economics of taxi driving mean they almost always drive crappy old cars which pollute a lot.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > the PM2.5 emissions should be solved with in ICE cars with inclusion of DPF and GPF filters Unless they filter the tyres, this will not be "solved". "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) .. are currently believed to constitute the majority of primary particulate matter from road transport, 60 percent of PM2.5 and 73 percent of PM10" https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-...
alliao 5y ago
I can't find it but I did recall there was some rule in France or some Scandinavian country that banned early childhood centres away from within certain distances to highways and a like
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> I have never heard the brake and tire argument, but it sounds like the 'batteries are worse for the environment than gas' argument which is not very accurate. It's not quite the same thing as "the long tailpipe fallacy". it's established fact, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/microplastics-from-car-brakes-and-tyres-darkening-the-arctic-ice-c055tmd0t https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/microplastics-from-car-br... https://airqualitynews.com/2020/03/09/air-pollution-from-tyres-1000-worse-than-from-exhaust-claims-study/ https://airqualitynews.com/2020/03/09/air-pollution-from-tyr... https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Electric cars are great, but let's be clear about what issues they will solve, and which they will not. They will produce _less_ particulate matter pollution due to not having an Internal Combustion Engine, but will not eliminate all sources of particulate matter pollution. Or even come close - the last link above estimates 60% is "Non-exhaust emissions" from "brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust"
maxerickson 5y ago
The tailpipe emissions on modern gasoline vehicles have very low particulates (and low NOx, which reduces particulate formation in the resulting air).
geoduck14 5y ago
>Makes you wonder if there are companies who benefit from information such as this being believed. If there is one thing I've learned from the Corona virus, it's that sometimes people push misinformation for ABSOLUTELY no reason at all.

kebman 5y ago

Tire wear is a matter of friction. Higher weight, higher friction, thus more wear. In this isolated instance, electrical cars are likely to be worse off than regular cars due to generally higher weight. Perhaps this is offset by regenerative breaking systems though. I'm sure you could make that argument on other parts of the EV as well. Outside of isolated areas like that, I would be seriously surprised if electrical cars comes worse off than gasoline cars on the whole. There has been some talk about CO2 emissions made when making hydro electric dams, for instance, but then there's also CO2 emissions when making oil platforms, and so on, so IMHO those kinds of discussions quickly become very theoretical. Either way, I'm sure EV's are better off in terms of local emissions, meaning that they reduce local smog, and so on. On the other hand, EV's can very well run on coal, if that's how your local electricity is produced. In that case, how well EV's do environmentally speaking is due to the total effort made by society. For that reason I'd love to see a comparison of gasoline and diesel versus coal. Which one is the cleanest? AFAIK there are some real issues with the way lithium is mined for the batteries, however, that doesn't strictly involve emissions. So there are many pros and cons in the debate on electric vs gas cars that aren't obvious to the casual on-looker. I don't have a particular horse in this race myself, but I do note that those who do, tend to offer arguments that are more strongly coloured by their preference. Personally environmental safety isn't the only deciding factor. There's also such things as cost and reach. And I don't just mean how many miles a car can run on one tank, but also its longevity. On the whole it seems to me that EV's have a higher capital cost (up front cost), that might not make up for the savings you make by running it. On the whole it seems to me that gasoline cars have far better overall longevity than EV's, with the offset that EV's are cheaper to run, though with slightly more hassle in the "refuelling" department. For me personally, winter cold is an issue, since it severely affects battery capacity. On the other hand, those Teslas do look pretty cool.

varjag 5y ago
Brake pads on my Nissan Leaf have lasted 6 years (~90,000 km).
heresie-dabord 5y ago
> electrical cars are likely to be worse off than regular cars due to generally higher weight. Given that a Nissan LEAF weighs about the same as a Honda CR-V, and that there are many EVs that have the same weight or are lighter than the Nissan LEAF, I would say that you are considering only a select group of EVs.
- tk75x 5y ago
  From https://www.easyelectriccars.com/how-much-do-electric-cars-weigh-with-10-examples/ https://www.easyelectriccars.com/how-much-do-electric-cars-w... Here are some examples of popular electric cars and how much they weigh in order of weight: Model X Long Range – 2459 kg without passengers or fuel (7 adult capacity). Tesla Model S Performance – 2241 kg without passengers or cargo (5 adult capacity). Tesla Model S Long Range – 2215 kg without passengers of cargo (5 adult capacity). Model 3 Performance and Long Range AWD – 1847 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Nissan Leaf – 1775 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Chevrolet Bolt – 1616 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Opel/Vauxhall Ampera-E – 1611 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Renault Zoe, 44 kWh – 1480 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Hyundai Kona – 1399 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). BMW i3 – 1343 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity). Based on this, and the upcoming plans of many automakers to launch pickup truck and SUV type EVs, I would say that a significant portion of EVs will be heavier than the average car on the road currently.
  - heresie-dabord 5y ago
    The EV market is about 2% of car sales in the US. I doubt that we would be right to predict double-digit growth happening suddenly. A Ford F150 (the most popular pick-up truck) weighs about the same as the Tesla Model 3. The top-selling vehicles in the US are all pick-up trucks. The Toyota Camry (a popular sedan) weighs about the same as the Nissan LEAF. The Prius Prime is also in this weight range. A Honda Fit (a popular small car) weight about the same as a Smart EQ. Small cars are not what US consumers are choosing. Your argument is a hypothetical projection of Tesla-class EVs into a very large market-share. In reality, consumers are choosing larger, heavier ICE vehicles.

closeparen 5y ago

It's not a showstopper, because the environmental argument for EVs is CO2 and climate change rather than PM2.5 and air quality. But it's worth bearing in mind that they only solve the former.

kebman 5y ago
Don't lower diesel and gasoline emissions matter at all?
gambiting 5y ago
>>But it's worth bearing in mind that they only solve the former. That's....almost categorically not true, the PM2.5 emissions should be solved with in ICE cars with inclusion of DPF and GPF filters, but there is plenty of cars without those still on the road. A taxi driver sitting outside of my house at night in his 10 year old Skoda Octavia diesel is definitely contributing to the air pollution around me, and that wouldn't be a problem if he drove an EV or a modern diesel with all the filters functional - but the economics of taxi driving mean they almost always drive crappy old cars which pollute a lot.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > the PM2.5 emissions should be solved with in ICE cars with inclusion of DPF and GPF filters Unless they filter the tyres, this will not be "solved". "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) .. are currently believed to constitute the majority of primary particulate matter from road transport, 60 percent of PM2.5 and 73 percent of PM10" https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-...

alliao 5y ago

I can't find it but I did recall there was some rule in France or some Scandinavian country that banned early childhood centres away from within certain distances to highways and a like

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> I have never heard the brake and tire argument, but it sounds like the 'batteries are worse for the environment than gas' argument which is not very accurate. It's not quite the same thing as "the long tailpipe fallacy". it's established fact, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/microplastics-from-car-brakes-and-tyres-darkening-the-arctic-ice-c055tmd0t https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/microplastics-from-car-br... https://airqualitynews.com/2020/03/09/air-pollution-from-tyres-1000-worse-than-from-exhaust-claims-study/ https://airqualitynews.com/2020/03/09/air-pollution-from-tyr... https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Electric cars are great, but let's be clear about what issues they will solve, and which they will not. They will produce _less_ particulate matter pollution due to not having an Internal Combustion Engine, but will not eliminate all sources of particulate matter pollution. Or even come close - the last link above estimates 60% is "Non-exhaust emissions" from "brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust"

maxerickson 5y ago

The tailpipe emissions on modern gasoline vehicles have very low particulates (and low NOx, which reduces particulate formation in the resulting air).

geoduck14 5y ago

>Makes you wonder if there are companies who benefit from information such as this being believed. If there is one thing I've learned from the Corona virus, it's that sometimes people push misinformation for ABSOLUTELY no reason at all.