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>False positives If this was a problem, would we not be seeing a slew of complaints about innocents being dragged through the mud with OneDrive and PhotoDNA?

>False positives If this was a problem, would we not be seeing a slew of complaints about innocents being dragged through the mud with OneDrive and PhotoDNA? The only thing unique about Apples implemention is that it's client-side.

angulardragon03 5y ago
Yes. The concern is reasonable, but given that this technology is widely implemented in basically every cloud storage offering, there isn't much to suggest that the described outcome will actually happen.
- Croftengea 5y ago
  Mega anyone?
- yreg 5y ago
  Do we know the described outcome is not happening with PhotoDNA, etc? In the story it didn't became a well known issue since it would happen only to few unlucky individuals. The same goes for the unintended asset freezing.
  - angulardragon03 5y ago
    Maybe anecdotal evidence, but I've read multiple posts/news stories about people affected by sanctions because of a shared name. I figure that if there was an issue where PhotoDNA had actually led to someone being arrested, that would have made headlines somewhere, at least here.
jx47 5y ago
But there is a difference. Sure the same technology might be integrated into several cloud storage provider. But i can choose to use a storage provider or not. If Apple is activating this technology on your phone you can not opt out. Your phone will be searched.
- samrolken 5y ago
  This is only applied to photos being uploaded to iCloud.
- solids 5y ago
  But this will be triggered only while uploading to iCloud, so if you are not using iCloud for photos the algorithm will never run? Or that’s why I understood.
  - andy_ppp 5y ago
    For now, the next step is to do on device scanning with fuzzy hashes whatever that means.
    - samrolken 5y ago
      What does that mean?
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Correct, Apple confirmed this hash-matching is only for their own iCloud Photos service (and appears to be designed with that service in mind).
- xlii 5y ago
  I might be mistaken but how it's not the same thing? - You don't like storage provider - you don't use it - You don't like ecosystem/smartphone provider - you don't use it On top of that you can opt out even now by disabling updates it just means that you won't have access to the newest iOS and take risk that at some point software developers will stop supporting OS you decided to stick to.
  - no_time 5y ago
    >You don't like ecosystem/smartphone provider - you don't use it This just doesn't work like this in our day and age. We are one ecosystem (android) away from complete domination of this scanning technology. You could argue that I could use a librem or something but at that point all librem users automatically become suspicious because "all major manufacturers have this, he probably has something to hide".
matzab 5y ago
This is definitely one of those topics where going public can have immediate negative consequences for someone even if it turns out to have been a false positive.
Hokusai 5y ago
> The only thing unique about Apples implemention is that it's client-side. This is just another case of, 'your phone' is not yours. People stores their lives and thoughts in a device that they have no control of. I am not against those use per se. I am worried about what it means legally. The minimum that we need is a more clear legal framework. This is a private company accessing personal data without consent and without any formal requirement from law enforcement.
- dwaite 5y ago
  > This is just another case of, 'your phone' is not yours. People stores their lives and thoughts in a device that they have no control of. This is specific to photo synchronization to the cloud, which is an optional service. In that sense, it isn't really doing anything different than say a OneDrive photo sync app - except it is doing the check on the client side, rather than having the server decrypt to do the check. It is part of the default install and setup wizard, but thats a battle we lost decades ago in the PC world. You still have to opt into iCloud synchronization for this to be enabled.
lovelyviking 5y ago
> The only thing unique about Apples implemention is that it's client-side. Yeah, the only thing unique is installation of Spyware Engine in personal device that will do 'who knows what' later. What can possibly go wrong?
- dwaite 5y ago
  The system is used during synchronization to iCloud Photos, which is an optional feature. Other hosting providers do similar scans, but they do not do them within the client-side component. Presumably, this is done to give the hosting environment no access to the actual data (e.g. data access such as by subpoena becomes a cross-organizational auditable event)

angulardragon03 5y ago

Yes. The concern is reasonable, but given that this technology is widely implemented in basically every cloud storage offering, there isn't much to suggest that the described outcome will actually happen.

Croftengea 5y ago
Mega anyone?
yreg 5y ago
Do we know the described outcome is not happening with PhotoDNA, etc? In the story it didn't became a well known issue since it would happen only to few unlucky individuals. The same goes for the unintended asset freezing.
- angulardragon03 5y ago
  Maybe anecdotal evidence, but I've read multiple posts/news stories about people affected by sanctions because of a shared name. I figure that if there was an issue where PhotoDNA had actually led to someone being arrested, that would have made headlines somewhere, at least here.

jx47 5y ago

But there is a difference. Sure the same technology might be integrated into several cloud storage provider. But i can choose to use a storage provider or not. If Apple is activating this technology on your phone you can not opt out. Your phone will be searched.

samrolken 5y ago
This is only applied to photos being uploaded to iCloud.
solids 5y ago
But this will be triggered only while uploading to iCloud, so if you are not using iCloud for photos the algorithm will never run? Or that’s why I understood.
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  For now, the next step is to do on device scanning with fuzzy hashes whatever that means.
  - samrolken 5y ago
    What does that mean?
- dwaite 5y ago
  Correct, Apple confirmed this hash-matching is only for their own iCloud Photos service (and appears to be designed with that service in mind).
xlii 5y ago
I might be mistaken but how it's not the same thing? - You don't like storage provider - you don't use it - You don't like ecosystem/smartphone provider - you don't use it On top of that you can opt out even now by disabling updates it just means that you won't have access to the newest iOS and take risk that at some point software developers will stop supporting OS you decided to stick to.
- no_time 5y ago
  >You don't like ecosystem/smartphone provider - you don't use it This just doesn't work like this in our day and age. We are one ecosystem (android) away from complete domination of this scanning technology. You could argue that I could use a librem or something but at that point all librem users automatically become suspicious because "all major manufacturers have this, he probably has something to hide".

matzab 5y ago

This is definitely one of those topics where going public can have immediate negative consequences for someone even if it turns out to have been a false positive.

Hokusai 5y ago

> The only thing unique about Apples implemention is that it's client-side. This is just another case of, 'your phone' is not yours. People stores their lives and thoughts in a device that they have no control of. I am not against those use per se. I am worried about what it means legally. The minimum that we need is a more clear legal framework. This is a private company accessing personal data without consent and without any formal requirement from law enforcement.

dwaite 5y ago
> This is just another case of, 'your phone' is not yours. People stores their lives and thoughts in a device that they have no control of. This is specific to photo synchronization to the cloud, which is an optional service. In that sense, it isn't really doing anything different than say a OneDrive photo sync app - except it is doing the check on the client side, rather than having the server decrypt to do the check. It is part of the default install and setup wizard, but thats a battle we lost decades ago in the PC world. You still have to opt into iCloud synchronization for this to be enabled.

lovelyviking 5y ago

> The only thing unique about Apples implemention is that it's client-side. Yeah, the only thing unique is installation of Spyware Engine in personal device that will do 'who knows what' later. What can possibly go wrong?

dwaite 5y ago
The system is used during synchronization to iCloud Photos, which is an optional feature. Other hosting providers do similar scans, but they do not do them within the client-side component. Presumably, this is done to give the hosting environment no access to the actual data (e.g. data access such as by subpoena becomes a cross-organizational auditable event)