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> It's just something that's obvious to me as a regular consumer of major US and European news media, who also happens to know something about China. As someon

> It's just something that's obvious to me as a regular consumer of major US and European news media, who also happens to know something about China. As someone with the same exposure, my opinion is the exact opposite. Sure sensationalist reporting exists, but the vast majority (as said) is somber and resigned. > Western reporting on China is actually quite limited. Surely you aren't implying that Chinese domestic media is somehow less censored or less purposeful in their narratives than western media? They literally can't talk about anything negative, or if they do it's muted and loaded with xenophobia and nationalists tropes. > If you want to know what's going on in the country, you pretty much have to learn the language, and relatively few people in the West know Chinese. I don't know why this talking point comes up over and over. I don't need to speak uyghur to hear their testimonials. I didn't need to be alive during WW2 to know what happened. The idea that if you aren't "there" you cannot know helps propagandists who have only a single goal, obstruction of truth. > If you ask Chinese people about the events, you'll get a wide range of views. Can this conversation take place in public? On social media (surely no). Can such conversation be done without threat (implied or actual)? If no, then we aren't talking about real knowledge. Knowledge that is implied but not spoken of isn't a reality, it's a myth. > "China has 56 ethnic groups" is a constant refrain I know, and they are actively trying to destroy several of those groups via political reeducation camps. The idea that China can claims to be a bastion of cultural diversity while actively trying to eliminate undesirable, non-Han cultures/languages/traditions is beyond orwellian. > most of the media is aggressively pushing an extremely narrow, distorted and negative narrative. Again, maybe on the outrage-centered social media feeds and via Chinese media itself (which promotes such ideas). If you actually read the mainstream coverage, it's methodical, thoughtful, and as said, deeply saddened by the apparent crimes against humanity they cover. No one is joyfully discussing XJ, and if they are they aren't worthy of your attention.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
> I don't need to speak uyghur to hear their testimonials. I didn't need to be alive during WW2 to know what happened. I find these comparisons extremely disrespectful to the memory of the Holocaust. The Third Reich systematically murdered millions of people. > If you actually read the mainstream coverage, it's methodical, thoughtful I read / listen to the mainstream news, both American and European, in a few different languages. I don't see how their coverage of China could possibly be considered "thoughtful" or "methodical." The major issues in China are barely covered. Western media tends to zero in on a few topics, to focus intensely on the negative aspects of those stories, to rely heavily on tenuous sourcing, and to ignore most of the background and context. Just as a recent example from the New York Times: "They Relied on Chinese Vaccines. Now They’re Battling Outbreaks."[1] The article is full of anecdotes like this: > One month after receiving his second dose of Sinopharm, Otgonjargal Baatar fell ill and tested positive for Covid-19. Mr. Otgonjargal, a 31-year-old miner, spent nine days in a hospital in Ulaanbaatar, the capital of Mongolia. He said he was now questioning the usefulness of the shot. You have to scroll most of the way through the article to find the first mention of the fact that scientific studies by public health authorities in these countries have shown that the Chinese vaccines in question have high real-world effectiveness, and are performing as expected: > Data from Mongolia showed that the Sinopharm vaccine was actually more protective than the doses developed by AstraZeneca and Sputnik, a Russian vaccine, according to the Health Ministry. After reading this line, I wonder, "Why did they even write this article?" If they wanted to write an article about vaccine effectiveness, they should have led with the scientific studies. Instead, they led with a litany of anecdotes meant to imply the vaccines didn't work, they wrote a title implying the vaccines don't work, and they buried what should be the main point (the vaccines work as expected) deep in the article. This borders on anti-vax propaganda, but it's about Chinese vaccines, so it gets a pass. Try to imagine the NY Times setting out to undermine the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines in this way. I can't. It would be a scandal. I could give examples like this from every day of the week. The news media don't really try to inform when it comes to China. As a consequence, most people in the US and Europe have a seriously distorted picture of the country - one which does not at all resemble reality. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/business/economy/china-vaccines-covid-outbreak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/business/economy/china-va...
- fortuna86 5y ago
  > I find these comparisons extremely disrespectful to the memory of the Holocaust. The Third Reich systematically murdered millions of people. I wasn't making a direct comparison, and instead of addressing what I said you got on a high horse about being offended. Disappointing. > You have to scroll most of the way through the article to find the first mention of the fact that scientific studies by public health authorities in these countries have shown that the Chinese vaccines in question have high real-world effectiveness This is a good example of what I consider to be maddening. You claim Vaccine disinfo by the NYTs. You point out that actually, Chinese vaccines are as good if not better than the other, worst performing vaccines (Russian, etc.). You do not compare them to the highest performing ones, I can only assume you've done this on purpose. Chinese vaccine makers specifically refuse to release their user data proving efficacy (unlike western vaccines that continually do so) so we are left to guess how effective they are. Some countries refuse to use them based on this alone (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-coronavirus-singapore-data/2021/03/23/7a0582ca-8afc-11eb-a33e-da28941cb9ac_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-coro...) As to how effective they are? The evidence isn't good. Several countries are seeking western booster shots when the initial Sinovac vaccines haven't proven effective enough: Turkey: https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-offers-covid-19-booster-shot-after-using-chinese-vaccine-in-early-drive-11625144544#refreshed https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-offers-covid-19-booster-... UAE: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-a-e-giving-third-shot-of-sinopharm-vaccine-to-some-11615575099?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-a-e-giving-third-shot-of-sino... Bahrain: https://www.wsj.com/articles/bahrain-facing-a-covid-surge-starts-giving-pfizer-boosters-to-recipients-of-chinese-vaccine-11622648737?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/bahrain-facing-a-covid-surge-st... Vietnam: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/commentary-vietnams-attitude-towards-chinese-vaccines-very-telling-2022376 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/commentary-vietna... Chinese companies themselves: https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-04-28/chinese-companies-considers-mixing-vaccines-booster-shots https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-04-28/... And scientists: "But the director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Gao Fu, said at a conference Saturday their efficacy rates needed improving. “We will solve the issue that current vaccines don’t have very high protection rates,” Gao said in a presentation on Chinese COVID-19 vaccines and immunization strategies at a conference in the southwestern city of Chengdu. “It’s now under consideration whether we should use different vaccines from different technical lines for the immunization process.” https://apnews.com/article/china-gao-fu-vaccines-offer-low-protection-coronavirus-675bcb6b5710c7329823148ffbff6ef9 https://apnews.com/article/china-gao-fu-vaccines-offer-low-p... I know you might be tempted to blame the messenger as most do and call all that "fake news", but the data is there. This isn't the NYTs pushing this narrative, it is widely accepted that the Chinese vaccines lose a lot of their potency only a few months after they are given. China has all but shut down their country because they have no confidence their vaccines work against Delta. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-high-alert-delta-variant-covid-19-spreads-five-provinces-n1275473 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-high-alert-delta-va... I'm thoroughly unimpressed by your only example of this claimed bias. Usually when I get into these discusses on Twitter it ends in XJ denialism, which i'm glad we aren't doing. But it's clear you have made up your mind which "side" you are on in all this. For my own curiosity, what is your connection to China? Does your livelihood depend on them in any way?

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

> I don't need to speak uyghur to hear their testimonials. I didn't need to be alive during WW2 to know what happened. I find these comparisons extremely disrespectful to the memory of the Holocaust. The Third Reich systematically murdered millions of people. > If you actually read the mainstream coverage, it's methodical, thoughtful I read / listen to the mainstream news, both American and European, in a few different languages. I don't see how their coverage of China could possibly be considered "thoughtful" or "methodical." The major issues in China are barely covered. Western media tends to zero in on a few topics, to focus intensely on the negative aspects of those stories, to rely heavily on tenuous sourcing, and to ignore most of the background and context. Just as a recent example from the New York Times: "They Relied on Chinese Vaccines. Now They’re Battling Outbreaks."[1] The article is full of anecdotes like this: > One month after receiving his second dose of Sinopharm, Otgonjargal Baatar fell ill and tested positive for Covid-19. Mr. Otgonjargal, a 31-year-old miner, spent nine days in a hospital in Ulaanbaatar, the capital of Mongolia. He said he was now questioning the usefulness of the shot. You have to scroll most of the way through the article to find the first mention of the fact that scientific studies by public health authorities in these countries have shown that the Chinese vaccines in question have high real-world effectiveness, and are performing as expected: > Data from Mongolia showed that the Sinopharm vaccine was actually more protective than the doses developed by AstraZeneca and Sputnik, a Russian vaccine, according to the Health Ministry. After reading this line, I wonder, "Why did they even write this article?" If they wanted to write an article about vaccine effectiveness, they should have led with the scientific studies. Instead, they led with a litany of anecdotes meant to imply the vaccines didn't work, they wrote a title implying the vaccines don't work, and they buried what should be the main point (the vaccines work as expected) deep in the article. This borders on anti-vax propaganda, but it's about Chinese vaccines, so it gets a pass. Try to imagine the NY Times setting out to undermine the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines in this way. I can't. It would be a scandal. I could give examples like this from every day of the week. The news media don't really try to inform when it comes to China. As a consequence, most people in the US and Europe have a seriously distorted picture of the country - one which does not at all resemble reality. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/business/economy/china-vaccines-covid-outbreak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/business/economy/china-va...

fortuna86 5y ago
> I find these comparisons extremely disrespectful to the memory of the Holocaust. The Third Reich systematically murdered millions of people. I wasn't making a direct comparison, and instead of addressing what I said you got on a high horse about being offended. Disappointing. > You have to scroll most of the way through the article to find the first mention of the fact that scientific studies by public health authorities in these countries have shown that the Chinese vaccines in question have high real-world effectiveness This is a good example of what I consider to be maddening. You claim Vaccine disinfo by the NYTs. You point out that actually, Chinese vaccines are as good if not better than the other, worst performing vaccines (Russian, etc.). You do not compare them to the highest performing ones, I can only assume you've done this on purpose. Chinese vaccine makers specifically refuse to release their user data proving efficacy (unlike western vaccines that continually do so) so we are left to guess how effective they are. Some countries refuse to use them based on this alone (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-coronavirus-singapore-data/2021/03/23/7a0582ca-8afc-11eb-a33e-da28941cb9ac_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-coro...) As to how effective they are? The evidence isn't good. Several countries are seeking western booster shots when the initial Sinovac vaccines haven't proven effective enough: Turkey: https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-offers-covid-19-booster-shot-after-using-chinese-vaccine-in-early-drive-11625144544#refreshed https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-offers-covid-19-booster-... UAE: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-a-e-giving-third-shot-of-sinopharm-vaccine-to-some-11615575099?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-a-e-giving-third-shot-of-sino... Bahrain: https://www.wsj.com/articles/bahrain-facing-a-covid-surge-starts-giving-pfizer-boosters-to-recipients-of-chinese-vaccine-11622648737?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/bahrain-facing-a-covid-surge-st... Vietnam: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/commentary-vietnams-attitude-towards-chinese-vaccines-very-telling-2022376 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/commentary-vietna... Chinese companies themselves: https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-04-28/chinese-companies-considers-mixing-vaccines-booster-shots https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-04-28/... And scientists: "But the director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Gao Fu, said at a conference Saturday their efficacy rates needed improving. “We will solve the issue that current vaccines don’t have very high protection rates,” Gao said in a presentation on Chinese COVID-19 vaccines and immunization strategies at a conference in the southwestern city of Chengdu. “It’s now under consideration whether we should use different vaccines from different technical lines for the immunization process.” https://apnews.com/article/china-gao-fu-vaccines-offer-low-protection-coronavirus-675bcb6b5710c7329823148ffbff6ef9 https://apnews.com/article/china-gao-fu-vaccines-offer-low-p... I know you might be tempted to blame the messenger as most do and call all that "fake news", but the data is there. This isn't the NYTs pushing this narrative, it is widely accepted that the Chinese vaccines lose a lot of their potency only a few months after they are given. China has all but shut down their country because they have no confidence their vaccines work against Delta. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-high-alert-delta-variant-covid-19-spreads-five-provinces-n1275473 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-high-alert-delta-va... I'm thoroughly unimpressed by your only example of this claimed bias. Usually when I get into these discusses on Twitter it ends in XJ denialism, which i'm glad we aren't doing. But it's clear you have made up your mind which "side" you are on in all this. For my own curiosity, what is your connection to China? Does your livelihood depend on them in any way?