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There is a subset of people who would endorse the statement: "The tiniest risk to me is not worth reducing deadly risk to a hundred thousand strangers." These

There is a subset of people who would endorse the statement: "The tiniest risk to me is not worth reducing deadly risk to a hundred thousand strangers." These are least delusional anti-vaxxers. They know that vaccination helps society at large, but they still won't get vaccinated, since they consider themselves young and healthy and at minimal risk from COVID. (They are still delusional, since the risk of COVID infection even in the young and healthy is still greater than vaccination risk. However, at least they don't believe in microchip conspiracies.) These people wouldn't sacrifice the smallest thing for the rest of us. So tell me, why should we respect their notions of personal liberty? Why give them anything, when they'd give absolutely nothing to the rest of us? If they want the freedom to not vaccinate themselves, for their own selfish interests, then we should deny them access to public venues, likewise for our own interests. We're a society. When our government is doing its job, we don't let people pollute the commons, whether it's with toxic waste or with deadly pathogens. Vaccination should indeed be compulsory.

trhway 5y ago
that distinct smell of ideological propaganda - reality distorting wrong or completely missing facts in support of self-proclaimed grand high-moral standing and request for sacrifice delivered with pathos and hysteria - takes me right to my childhood back in USSR. Having been exposed so much to the propaganda in the childhood, i'm pretty immune to it is as a result. It is fascinating though to observe (and many former communist countries immigrants that i've talked to are similarly taken aback) how these days it has been successfully infecting and quickly taking over societal groups which don't have immunity to propaganda. One can hope though that after current debacle with covid such immunity will get a bit more widespread.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  You should not have been downvoted. I grew up in apartheid South Africa, where I also learned to recognise government propaganda. I have also been somewhat surprised by how gullible people are being. But I've seen it before several times, usually as a prelude to attacking some other country: examples are the build up to the Iraq war, the bombing of Serbia, Libya and of course Syria.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    It seems to me that the people with little PR immunity - the majority, apparently - are susceptible to dismissing ideas outside of their bubble. Along with that, they dismiss the people who contradict their chosen propaganda stream, no matter how many times they've been proven wrong. As someone with a higher immunity to disinfo, have you had any success convincing others toward your conclusions?
    - 13years 5y ago
      Propaganda works best through fear. Fear results in cognitive dissonance making it literally impossible to process information correctly. Somehow the fear needs to be addressed first and I as of yet haven't found any particular great way to do that. The second contributor, is that people are reluctant to back out of a heavily invested position. Once they are in that position long enough, they identify that as part of who they are.
    - a0-prw 5y ago
      No, I have not had much success at all. I agree with you. Most people don't even want to think for themselves, sadly.
Zababa 5y ago
I'm not one of the people that think that, but these people were forced to sacrifice their liberties to protect other people already (lockdowns, restrictions, etc). Their personal liberties have already been not respected.
- teeray 5y ago
  I think it’s also an issue of “if this, then what else?” Time and again, we’ve told society to do something and then life as usual can resume. Sure, there’s been folks that have fought against every step of the way, but many have followed along. Now we’re asking people to do something deeply personal that will be with them the rest of their lives. If they do this, they’re wondering, will they finally be left alone to live their lives?
  - Zababa 5y ago
    That's a great point. In France they did this in a infuriating way: first announce a month of lockdown, then at the end another, then another. I feel like we're treated like children.
Overton-Window 5y ago
> "The tiniest risk to me is not worth reducing deadly risk to a hundred thousand strangers." Please elaborate on how an unvaccinated individual poses a deadly risk to a hundred thousand vaccinated strangers.
- exo-pla-net 5y ago
  That was a non-hyperbolic illustration of the attitude you'll find among many anti-vaxxers. The ones who won't even wear a mask, since that would be too much of an imposition on their "freedom". But to address your criticism you've written between the lines, the vaccinated might not die, but they're still at risk for long term complications, were they to contract COVID. And ultimately, the longer this lasts, the more strains will appear, some of which might indeed prove adequate to kill the vaccinated. A thorough campaign of vaccination, on the other hand, would put an end to this disease, just as vaccination put an end to measles, polio, whooping cough, mumps, etc. etc.
  - Overton-Window 5y ago
    Israel debunks your theory. You can't vaccinate against COVID. It is now a seasonal disease with us to stay. > A thorough campaign of vaccination, on the other hand, would put an end to this disease, just as vaccination put an end to measles, polio, whooping cough, mumps, etc. etc. How many strains did we see of each of the above within the first 18 months of existence?
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      > Israel debunks your theory Cherry picking. There is plenty of contra evidence to suggest that vaccination is extremely effective at keeping people from getting very ill. > It is now a seasonal disease with us to stay Agreed, though it's clearly not seasonal (a surge in summer?). Unless a particularly lethal variant comes along and whittles down the antivaxxer population significantly.
      - briefcomment 5y ago
ekianjo 5y ago
> They are still delusional, since the risk of COVID infection even in the young and healthy is still greater than vaccination risk Statistics don't matter if you don't know your own personal risk. For an individual the risk of a negative outcome is binary, not 0.00001%. That's what people who talk about stats fail to realize over and over again. You won't convince anyone with stats.
- majewsky 5y ago
  Wow, I wasn't aware that people have perfect precognition and know ahead of time what everyone else around them is going to do and how that is going to affect them.
walkhour 5y ago
> These are least delusional anti-vaxxers. They know that vaccination helps society at large, but they still won't get vaccinated, since they consider themselves young and healthy and at minimal risk from COVID. Society bulling and shaming you into vaccinating will be enough for some people to not get vaccinated > These people wouldn't sacrifice the smallest thing for the rest of us. So tell me, why should we respect their notions of personal liberty? Why give them anything, when they'd give absolutely nothing to the rest of us? Because their liberty is not continent on them sacrificing for you. This is the weirdest concept of liberty I've come across > If they want the freedom to not vaccinate themselves, for their own selfish interests, then we should deny them access to public venues, likewise for our own interests. They would probably be more than happy with this if the corresponding taxes were decreased and private alternatives were available.

trhway 5y ago

that distinct smell of ideological propaganda - reality distorting wrong or completely missing facts in support of self-proclaimed grand high-moral standing and request for sacrifice delivered with pathos and hysteria - takes me right to my childhood back in USSR. Having been exposed so much to the propaganda in the childhood, i'm pretty immune to it is as a result. It is fascinating though to observe (and many former communist countries immigrants that i've talked to are similarly taken aback) how these days it has been successfully infecting and quickly taking over societal groups which don't have immunity to propaganda. One can hope though that after current debacle with covid such immunity will get a bit more widespread.

a0-prw 5y ago
You should not have been downvoted. I grew up in apartheid South Africa, where I also learned to recognise government propaganda. I have also been somewhat surprised by how gullible people are being. But I've seen it before several times, usually as a prelude to attacking some other country: examples are the build up to the Iraq war, the bombing of Serbia, Libya and of course Syria.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  It seems to me that the people with little PR immunity - the majority, apparently - are susceptible to dismissing ideas outside of their bubble. Along with that, they dismiss the people who contradict their chosen propaganda stream, no matter how many times they've been proven wrong. As someone with a higher immunity to disinfo, have you had any success convincing others toward your conclusions?
  - 13years 5y ago
    Propaganda works best through fear. Fear results in cognitive dissonance making it literally impossible to process information correctly. Somehow the fear needs to be addressed first and I as of yet haven't found any particular great way to do that. The second contributor, is that people are reluctant to back out of a heavily invested position. Once they are in that position long enough, they identify that as part of who they are.
  - a0-prw 5y ago
    No, I have not had much success at all. I agree with you. Most people don't even want to think for themselves, sadly.

Zababa 5y ago

I'm not one of the people that think that, but these people were forced to sacrifice their liberties to protect other people already (lockdowns, restrictions, etc). Their personal liberties have already been not respected.

teeray 5y ago
I think it’s also an issue of “if this, then what else?” Time and again, we’ve told society to do something and then life as usual can resume. Sure, there’s been folks that have fought against every step of the way, but many have followed along. Now we’re asking people to do something deeply personal that will be with them the rest of their lives. If they do this, they’re wondering, will they finally be left alone to live their lives?
- Zababa 5y ago
  That's a great point. In France they did this in a infuriating way: first announce a month of lockdown, then at the end another, then another. I feel like we're treated like children.

Overton-Window 5y ago

> "The tiniest risk to me is not worth reducing deadly risk to a hundred thousand strangers." Please elaborate on how an unvaccinated individual poses a deadly risk to a hundred thousand vaccinated strangers.

exo-pla-net 5y ago
That was a non-hyperbolic illustration of the attitude you'll find among many anti-vaxxers. The ones who won't even wear a mask, since that would be too much of an imposition on their "freedom". But to address your criticism you've written between the lines, the vaccinated might not die, but they're still at risk for long term complications, were they to contract COVID. And ultimately, the longer this lasts, the more strains will appear, some of which might indeed prove adequate to kill the vaccinated. A thorough campaign of vaccination, on the other hand, would put an end to this disease, just as vaccination put an end to measles, polio, whooping cough, mumps, etc. etc.
- Overton-Window 5y ago
  Israel debunks your theory. You can't vaccinate against COVID. It is now a seasonal disease with us to stay. > A thorough campaign of vaccination, on the other hand, would put an end to this disease, just as vaccination put an end to measles, polio, whooping cough, mumps, etc. etc. How many strains did we see of each of the above within the first 18 months of existence?
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > Israel debunks your theory Cherry picking. There is plenty of contra evidence to suggest that vaccination is extremely effective at keeping people from getting very ill. > It is now a seasonal disease with us to stay Agreed, though it's clearly not seasonal (a surge in summer?). Unless a particularly lethal variant comes along and whittles down the antivaxxer population significantly.
    - briefcomment 5y ago

ekianjo 5y ago

> They are still delusional, since the risk of COVID infection even in the young and healthy is still greater than vaccination risk Statistics don't matter if you don't know your own personal risk. For an individual the risk of a negative outcome is binary, not 0.00001%. That's what people who talk about stats fail to realize over and over again. You won't convince anyone with stats.

majewsky 5y ago
Wow, I wasn't aware that people have perfect precognition and know ahead of time what everyone else around them is going to do and how that is going to affect them.

walkhour 5y ago

> These are least delusional anti-vaxxers. They know that vaccination helps society at large, but they still won't get vaccinated, since they consider themselves young and healthy and at minimal risk from COVID. Society bulling and shaming you into vaccinating will be enough for some people to not get vaccinated > These people wouldn't sacrifice the smallest thing for the rest of us. So tell me, why should we respect their notions of personal liberty? Why give them anything, when they'd give absolutely nothing to the rest of us? Because their liberty is not continent on them sacrificing for you. This is the weirdest concept of liberty I've come across > If they want the freedom to not vaccinate themselves, for their own selfish interests, then we should deny them access to public venues, likewise for our own interests. They would probably be more than happy with this if the corresponding taxes were decreased and private alternatives were available.