5 ms·

> That's not how it works, unless you control your partner's Apple ID and you lie about their DOB when you create their account. Rather than reassuring me, thi

> That's not how it works, unless you control your partner's Apple ID and you lie about their DOB when you create their account. Rather than reassuring me, this sounds like an achievable set of steps for an abuser to carry out.

leereeves 5y ago
More than achievable. Abusers often control their victims' accounts.
oh_sigh 5y ago
What forms of abuse will this open up to the prospective abuser that they couldn't do previously?
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Distrust your spouse/partner isn't cheating? Designate them a minor and let the phone tell you if they sext.
  - setr 5y ago
    If you already control their apple account, then you already have access to this information. Your threat model can’t be “the user is already pwned” because then everything is vulnerable, always
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      The real problem here is that the user can't un-pwn the device, because it's the corporation that has root instead of the user. To do a factory reset or otherwise get it back into a state where the spyware the abuser installed is not present, the manufacturer requires the authorization of the abuser. If you can't root your own device then you can't e.g. spoof the spyware and have it report what you want it to report instead of what you're actually doing.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      Well yeah, but this makes the UI better to pwn your victims - now it tells you when they do something instead of you needing to watch for it
    - rStar 5y ago
      i wish I could downvote this a million times. if someone has to seize physical control of your phone to see sexts thats one thing. this informs the abuser whenever the sext is sent/received. this feature will lead to violent beatings of victims who share a residence with their abuser. Consider the scenario of sally sexting jim while tom sits in another room of the same home waiting for the text to set him off. in other circumstances, sally would be able to delete her texts, now violent tom will know immediately. Apple has just removed the protection of deleting texts from victims of same residence abusers. Apple should be ashamed. I see this as Apple paying the tax of doing business in many of the worlds most lucrative markets. Apple has developed this feature to gain access to markets that require this level of surveillance if their citizens.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > Consider the scenario of sally sexting jim while tom sits in another room Consider Sally sending a picture of a bee that Apple’s algo determines with 100% confidence is a breast while Tom sits in another room. One could iterate ad infinitum.
werber 5y ago
I recently had a friend stay with me after being abused by their partner. The partner had paid for their phone and account and was using that control to spy on them. I wish that cyber security was taught in a more practical way because it has real world consequences. And like two comments on here and it’s now clear as day how this change could be used to perpetuate abuse. I’m not sure what the right solution is, but I wish there was a tech non profit that secured victims of abuse in their communication in an accessible way to non tech people.
- oyashirochama 5y ago
  Most people on this platform understand Cyber Sec and OpSec relatively well. The problem is you are concerned with the people not on a platform like this who require a good learning system and ways of making it interesting to actually retain and understand.
cookieswumchorr 5y ago
exactly, as the IT guy in the family you set up accounts for everybody all the time
intended 5y ago
Here’s better - There’s a repository built from seized child porn. Those pictures and videos have hashes. Apple wants to match against those hashes. That’s it. That’s it for now.
- Macha 5y ago
  This is implying all the concerns about possible future uses of this technology are unreasonable slippery slope concerns, but we're on our like fourth or fifth time on this slope and we've slipped down it every previous time, so it's not unreasonable to be concerned Previous times down this slope: * UK internet filters for child porn -> opt out filters for regular porn (ISPs now have a list of porn viewers) + mandatory filters for copyright infringment * Google drive filters for illegal content -> Google driver filters for copyrighted content * iCloud data is totally protected so it's ok to require an apple account -> iCloud in China run by government controlled data centers without encryption * Protection against malware is important so Windows defender is mandatory unless you have a third party program -> Windows Defender deletes DeCSS * Need to protect users against malware, so mobile devices are set up as walled gardens -> Providers use these walled gardens to prevent business models that are bad for them
  - intended 5y ago
    The first slippery slope for this was when people made tools to do deep packet inspection and find copyrighted content during the Napster era. That was the first sin of the internet era. Discussing slippery slopes does nothing. Edit: It is frustrating to see where we are going. However - conversations on HN tend to focus on the false positives, and not too much on the actual villains who are doing unspeakable things. Perhaps people need to hear stories from case workers or people actually dealing with the other side of the coin to better make a call on where the line should be drawn.
    - bostik 5y ago
      I don't think anyone here is trying to detract from the horrors and the crimes. My problem is that these lists have already been used for retaliation against valid criticism. Scope creep is real, and in case of this particular list, adding an item is an explicit, global accusation of the creator and/or distributor for being a child molester. I also wrote some less commonly voiced thoughts yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28071872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28071872

leereeves 5y ago

More than achievable. Abusers often control their victims' accounts.

oh_sigh 5y ago

What forms of abuse will this open up to the prospective abuser that they couldn't do previously?

vineyardmike 5y ago
Distrust your spouse/partner isn't cheating? Designate them a minor and let the phone tell you if they sext.
- setr 5y ago
  If you already control their apple account, then you already have access to this information. Your threat model can’t be “the user is already pwned” because then everything is vulnerable, always
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    The real problem here is that the user can't un-pwn the device, because it's the corporation that has root instead of the user. To do a factory reset or otherwise get it back into a state where the spyware the abuser installed is not present, the manufacturer requires the authorization of the abuser. If you can't root your own device then you can't e.g. spoof the spyware and have it report what you want it to report instead of what you're actually doing.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    Well yeah, but this makes the UI better to pwn your victims - now it tells you when they do something instead of you needing to watch for it
  - rStar 5y ago
    i wish I could downvote this a million times. if someone has to seize physical control of your phone to see sexts thats one thing. this informs the abuser whenever the sext is sent/received. this feature will lead to violent beatings of victims who share a residence with their abuser. Consider the scenario of sally sexting jim while tom sits in another room of the same home waiting for the text to set him off. in other circumstances, sally would be able to delete her texts, now violent tom will know immediately. Apple has just removed the protection of deleting texts from victims of same residence abusers. Apple should be ashamed. I see this as Apple paying the tax of doing business in many of the worlds most lucrative markets. Apple has developed this feature to gain access to markets that require this level of surveillance if their citizens.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Consider the scenario of sally sexting jim while tom sits in another room Consider Sally sending a picture of a bee that Apple’s algo determines with 100% confidence is a breast while Tom sits in another room. One could iterate ad infinitum.

werber 5y ago

I recently had a friend stay with me after being abused by their partner. The partner had paid for their phone and account and was using that control to spy on them. I wish that cyber security was taught in a more practical way because it has real world consequences. And like two comments on here and it’s now clear as day how this change could be used to perpetuate abuse. I’m not sure what the right solution is, but I wish there was a tech non profit that secured victims of abuse in their communication in an accessible way to non tech people.

oyashirochama 5y ago
Most people on this platform understand Cyber Sec and OpSec relatively well. The problem is you are concerned with the people not on a platform like this who require a good learning system and ways of making it interesting to actually retain and understand.

cookieswumchorr 5y ago

exactly, as the IT guy in the family you set up accounts for everybody all the time

intended 5y ago

Here’s better - There’s a repository built from seized child porn. Those pictures and videos have hashes. Apple wants to match against those hashes. That’s it. That’s it for now.

Macha 5y ago
This is implying all the concerns about possible future uses of this technology are unreasonable slippery slope concerns, but we're on our like fourth or fifth time on this slope and we've slipped down it every previous time, so it's not unreasonable to be concerned Previous times down this slope: * UK internet filters for child porn -> opt out filters for regular porn (ISPs now have a list of porn viewers) + mandatory filters for copyright infringment * Google drive filters for illegal content -> Google driver filters for copyrighted content * iCloud data is totally protected so it's ok to require an apple account -> iCloud in China run by government controlled data centers without encryption * Protection against malware is important so Windows defender is mandatory unless you have a third party program -> Windows Defender deletes DeCSS * Need to protect users against malware, so mobile devices are set up as walled gardens -> Providers use these walled gardens to prevent business models that are bad for them
- intended 5y ago
  The first slippery slope for this was when people made tools to do deep packet inspection and find copyrighted content during the Napster era. That was the first sin of the internet era. Discussing slippery slopes does nothing. Edit: It is frustrating to see where we are going. However - conversations on HN tend to focus on the false positives, and not too much on the actual villains who are doing unspeakable things. Perhaps people need to hear stories from case workers or people actually dealing with the other side of the coin to better make a call on where the line should be drawn.
  - bostik 5y ago
    I don't think anyone here is trying to detract from the horrors and the crimes. My problem is that these lists have already been used for retaliation against valid criticism. Scope creep is real, and in case of this particular list, adding an item is an explicit, global accusation of the creator and/or distributor for being a child molester. I also wrote some less commonly voiced thoughts yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28071872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28071872