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Catching child pornographers should not involve subjecting innocent people to scans and searches. Frankly, I don't care if this "CSAM" system is effective - I p

Catching child pornographers should not involve subjecting innocent people to scans and searches. Frankly, I don't care if this "CSAM" system is effective - I paid for the phone, it should operate for ME, not for the government or law enforcement. Besides, the imagery already exists by the time it's been found - the damage has been done. I'd say the authorities should prioritise tracking down the creators but I'm sure their statistics look much more impressive by cracking down on small fry. I've had enough of the "think of the children" arguments.

bambax 5y ago
Yes. I'm not interested in catching pedophiles, or drug dealers, or terrorists. It's the job of the police. I'm not the police.
- adolph 5y ago
  Yes, if you act as the police you are a vigilante.
mrits 5y ago
There isn't any reason to believe the CSAM hash list is only images. The government now has the ability to search for anything in your iCloud account with this.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Why is it always "think of the children"? It gets people emotional? What about terrorism, murder, or a litany of other heinous violent crimes?
- falcolas 5y ago
  I invite you to look up "The Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse". Child Pornography is but one of the well trodden paths to remove privacy and security.
  - kazinator 5y ago
    And remember, a minor who takes pictures of him or herself is an offender.
    - fortran77 5y ago
      As it has to be. Because there's no defense against the possession of it, you don't want a situation where a person under 18 can take pictures of him or herself, send it to an adult unsolicited, and then call the police and not suffer any consequences.
      - chki 5y ago
        That doesn't make any sense and it's not how it works in a number of other countries. You could (for example) make it illegal to send these pictures instead.
        fortran77 5y ago
        That's how it works in the U.S. It's called "strict liability."
        kazinator 5y ago
        People own their bodies. Taking pictures of yourself, if you're a child, isn't child porn any more than touching yourself is molestation/assault. Children don't need to be hit with "strict liability". A person trying to frame someone else of a serious crime commits a serious offense, yes. But that's a logically separate concept from the production or possession of child pornography, which that person must not be regarded as committing if the images are of him or herself. The idiotic law potentially victimizes victims. A perpetrator can threaten the child into denying the existence of the perpetrator, and into falsely admitting to having taken pictures him or herself. It's exactly like taking the victims of human trafficking and charging them with prostitution, because the existence and whereabouts of the traffickers couldn't be established. Whoever came up with this nonsense was blinded by their Bible Belt morality into not seeing the unintended consequences.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  "CSAM" is an easy target because people can't see it - it would be wrong for you to audit the db because then you'd need the illicit content. So its invisible to the average law-abiders.
- suizi 5y ago
  France has been pushing terrorism as a justification for mass-surveillance in the E.U.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
zionic 5y ago
I’m furious. My top app has 250,000 uniques a day. I’m considering a 24h black out with a protest link to apple’s support email explaining what they’ve done. I wonder if anyone else would join me?
- collaborative 5y ago
  We need to get organized first. We need a support platform where we can coordinate these type of actions. It's in my todo list, but if anyone can get this started please do so
burself 5y ago
The algorithms and data involved are too sensitive to be discussed publicly and the reasoning is acceptable enough to even the most knowledgeable people. They can't even be pressured to prove that the system is effective at it's primary purpose. This is the perfect way to begin opening the backend doors.
- suizi 5y ago
  Security by obscurity has never been particularly effective, and there are some articles which allege that detection algorithms can be defeated fairly easily.
- kccqzy 5y ago
  The algorithm is actually public: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Security_Protocol_and_Analysis.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Secu... From an intellectual point of view it's interesting to learn about. I agree with the rest of your points. The problem is that we don't know if Apple implemented this algorithm correctly, or even this algorithm at all, because the source code isn't subject to review and, even it were the binary cannot be proved to have been built from such source code. We also don't have proof that the only images being searched for are child abuse images as they claim.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
NoPicklez 5y ago
I do agree with your points, but I think it's obvious to see that this feature is trying to allow authorities to catch the creators.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
samstave 5y ago
Here is my main takeaway from this: FB has an ENTIRE FUCKING DEPARTMENT dedicated to scanning and monitoring and ostensibly reporting all sorts of abhorrant and depraved activities posted to FB... Have you heard of ONE major sting/arrest round up or ANYTHING coming from them? NOPE. FFS - I used to commute to FB with one of the guys on that team and he wasn't supposed to talk about it - but he mentioned some of the HORRIFIC things they had to deal with. Still -- Not a SINGLE major "crackdown" or "cleanup" or "roundup" from anything that FB has done and according to them they have half the fucking planet as a user-base. --- Either these companies are harboring abusers and pedos - or they are are complicit or profiting from them. I am so cynical about this - because I dont trust ANY tech company to tell me they have a tech solution for "child abuse" -- when they dopn't have a single success story in anti-ANYTHING-for the good-of-all. Where are the dictators, abusers, molesters, murderers, etc etc etc that have been taken down by any of these measures? You think APPLE is going to be able to prevent child abuse? They cant even get rid of hyper-planned-obsolescence from their product lines which massively impacts the environment. Apple is just continuing the douchebag line of "look at the good we are doing" Here put more suicide nets up in the slave factories where children make our products - we will be the frontman for "anti-child-abuse" Have you seen undercover video from their and other tech factories in china?
- torstenvl 5y ago
  The work of Facebook's illicit media team has led to many, many prosecutions. They intentionally keep quiet about it because the reaction to a headline like "500-member Child Porn Ring busted on Facebook" isn't "Geez, I'm glad Facebook is keeping us safe," it's "Wow, maybe we shouldn't let our teenagers on Facebook" -- a reaction that significantly hurts their bottom line, and tips off the ChiPo folks besides. Source: my own experiences in the criminal justice system and Chaos Monkeys, by Antonio Garcia-Martinez (a Y Combinator alum!).
  - fortran77 5y ago
    > Source: my own experiences in the criminal justice system and Chaos Monkeys, by Antonio Garcia-Martinez (a Y Combinator alum!). Makes me think even harder about the _real_ reason Apple canceled him.
anthk 5y ago
> the damage has been done. I'd say the authorities should prioritise tracking down the creators Russian and ex-Soviet countries with human trafficking mafias host several fucked up people who produce this crap.
tamrix 5y ago
You know it can be used to get the geo location in the meta data of pictures for people who took photos at protests. Etc

bambax 5y ago

Yes. I'm not interested in catching pedophiles, or drug dealers, or terrorists. It's the job of the police. I'm not the police.

adolph 5y ago
Yes, if you act as the police you are a vigilante.

mrits 5y ago

There isn't any reason to believe the CSAM hash list is only images. The government now has the ability to search for anything in your iCloud account with this.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

Why is it always "think of the children"? It gets people emotional? What about terrorism, murder, or a litany of other heinous violent crimes?

falcolas 5y ago
I invite you to look up "The Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse". Child Pornography is but one of the well trodden paths to remove privacy and security.
- kazinator 5y ago
  And remember, a minor who takes pictures of him or herself is an offender.
  - fortran77 5y ago
    As it has to be. Because there's no defense against the possession of it, you don't want a situation where a person under 18 can take pictures of him or herself, send it to an adult unsolicited, and then call the police and not suffer any consequences.
    - chki 5y ago
      That doesn't make any sense and it's not how it works in a number of other countries. You could (for example) make it illegal to send these pictures instead.
      - fortran77 5y ago
        That's how it works in the U.S. It's called "strict liability."
        kazinator 5y ago
        People own their bodies. Taking pictures of yourself, if you're a child, isn't child porn any more than touching yourself is molestation/assault. Children don't need to be hit with "strict liability". A person trying to frame someone else of a serious crime commits a serious offense, yes. But that's a logically separate concept from the production or possession of child pornography, which that person must not be regarded as committing if the images are of him or herself. The idiotic law potentially victimizes victims. A perpetrator can threaten the child into denying the existence of the perpetrator, and into falsely admitting to having taken pictures him or herself. It's exactly like taking the victims of human trafficking and charging them with prostitution, because the existence and whereabouts of the traffickers couldn't be established. Whoever came up with this nonsense was blinded by their Bible Belt morality into not seeing the unintended consequences.
vineyardmike 5y ago
"CSAM" is an easy target because people can't see it - it would be wrong for you to audit the db because then you'd need the illicit content. So its invisible to the average law-abiders.
suizi 5y ago
France has been pushing terrorism as a justification for mass-surveillance in the E.U.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

zionic 5y ago

I’m furious. My top app has 250,000 uniques a day. I’m considering a 24h black out with a protest link to apple’s support email explaining what they’ve done. I wonder if anyone else would join me?

collaborative 5y ago
We need to get organized first. We need a support platform where we can coordinate these type of actions. It's in my todo list, but if anyone can get this started please do so

burself 5y ago

The algorithms and data involved are too sensitive to be discussed publicly and the reasoning is acceptable enough to even the most knowledgeable people. They can't even be pressured to prove that the system is effective at it's primary purpose. This is the perfect way to begin opening the backend doors.

suizi 5y ago
Security by obscurity has never been particularly effective, and there are some articles which allege that detection algorithms can be defeated fairly easily.
kccqzy 5y ago
The algorithm is actually public: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Security_Protocol_and_Analysis.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Secu... From an intellectual point of view it's interesting to learn about. I agree with the rest of your points. The problem is that we don't know if Apple implemented this algorithm correctly, or even this algorithm at all, because the source code isn't subject to review and, even it were the binary cannot be proved to have been built from such source code. We also don't have proof that the only images being searched for are child abuse images as they claim.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

NoPicklez 5y ago

I do agree with your points, but I think it's obvious to see that this feature is trying to allow authorities to catch the creators.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

samstave 5y ago

Here is my main takeaway from this: FB has an ENTIRE FUCKING DEPARTMENT dedicated to scanning and monitoring and ostensibly reporting all sorts of abhorrant and depraved activities posted to FB... Have you heard of ONE major sting/arrest round up or ANYTHING coming from them? NOPE. FFS - I used to commute to FB with one of the guys on that team and he wasn't supposed to talk about it - but he mentioned some of the HORRIFIC things they had to deal with. Still -- Not a SINGLE major "crackdown" or "cleanup" or "roundup" from anything that FB has done and according to them they have half the fucking planet as a user-base. --- Either these companies are harboring abusers and pedos - or they are are complicit or profiting from them. I am so cynical about this - because I dont trust ANY tech company to tell me they have a tech solution for "child abuse" -- when they dopn't have a single success story in anti-ANYTHING-for the good-of-all. Where are the dictators, abusers, molesters, murderers, etc etc etc that have been taken down by any of these measures? You think APPLE is going to be able to prevent child abuse? They cant even get rid of hyper-planned-obsolescence from their product lines which massively impacts the environment. Apple is just continuing the douchebag line of "look at the good we are doing" Here put more suicide nets up in the slave factories where children make our products - we will be the frontman for "anti-child-abuse" Have you seen undercover video from their and other tech factories in china?

torstenvl 5y ago
The work of Facebook's illicit media team has led to many, many prosecutions. They intentionally keep quiet about it because the reaction to a headline like "500-member Child Porn Ring busted on Facebook" isn't "Geez, I'm glad Facebook is keeping us safe," it's "Wow, maybe we shouldn't let our teenagers on Facebook" -- a reaction that significantly hurts their bottom line, and tips off the ChiPo folks besides. Source: my own experiences in the criminal justice system and Chaos Monkeys, by Antonio Garcia-Martinez (a Y Combinator alum!).
- fortran77 5y ago
  > Source: my own experiences in the criminal justice system and Chaos Monkeys, by Antonio Garcia-Martinez (a Y Combinator alum!). Makes me think even harder about the _real_ reason Apple canceled him.

anthk 5y ago

> the damage has been done. I'd say the authorities should prioritise tracking down the creators Russian and ex-Soviet countries with human trafficking mafias host several fucked up people who produce this crap.

tamrix 5y ago

You know it can be used to get the geo location in the meta data of pictures for people who took photos at protests. Etc