4 ms·

I often go so far to not want to work with people who sugar coat it. I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty abov

I often go so far to not want to work with people who sugar coat it. I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty above anything else as it leads to more efficient execution. Yes, some people feelings are hurt, but when I happen to cause it, I remember that 10 years old kids can survive much more brutal expressions while adults act like they are part of the mickey mouse club.

coldtea 5y ago
>I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty above anything else as it leads to more efficient execution. Does it though, or does it lead to animosity, back-stabbings, a toxic environment, discouragement and so on? Such things also have their tradeoffs.
- majkinetor 5y ago
  If it leads o backstabing I am will prefer not to work with you. If you act like a 3 year old kid in professional context, then you are not welcome in my environment. So this is also a kind of test - real life is ripe which MUCH more worst examples of it, and if you can't take a honest negative comment, it says a lot about you. At my current job I have a team of 4 and we can say to each other much more nasty shit then that, and I can't imagine working with such passion with anybody else (the feeling is mutual). We also accomplish x10 more then any other team.
  - teekert 5y ago
    Maybe it works for your current team, but there are many people out there that are more introverted and care more about how a group feels and to them that is intimately connected to how it functions. These people are also valuable but you'd scare them away. As a result I think your team is not very diverse and inevitably you will just squash any resistance and make what your team thinks is best because more silent people (with their interesting, different perspective) won't stand up to you anymore. I think this is a recipe for failure. We did an "Insights course" [0]. It seems like you are in a team of red people (competitive, determined, strong willed), but green people (caring, sharing, encouraging) people will have bad time there. Same for precise, deliberate, questioning individuals. I think it is good to consider how the way you communicate can affect others. Honestly based on what you are saying I would like working with you, I too have a big mouth. But don't you want to at least try to be a person that can work with any character type? And does it matter who is welcome in your environment? Sometimes people are stuck with you, it seems like when they don't match your expectations, you are going to give them a bad time. [0] https://www.mudamasters.com/en/personal-growth-personality/insights-discovery-part-1-4-colors https://www.mudamasters.com/en/personal-growth-personality/i...
    - majkinetor 5y ago
      Hey, this is a big world, to each his own :) One of the most important thing in working environment is to enjoy it. If that is not your cup of tea, no need to push it or tell me my environment is wrong. Yes, we are "red people" I guess :) > Honestly based on what you are saying I would like working with you, I too have a big mouth. You can :) If you don't mind working remote and have good programming skillz and like big gov projects feel free to contact me :) > Sometimes people are stuck with you Then I will try to unstack :)
      - teekert 5y ago
        :) Thanx for the offer but I'm quite fine with where I am. I just want to add some more thoughts, I feel in a sense that I'm talking to past me. You see, Bro, I get it. I worked in a supermarket when I was younger, we constantly insulted each other's mother and we said multiple things a day that would more than embarrass us should we ever become POTUS. We physically hurt each other. And I think back of those times with feelings of warmth in my heart. But, was it an open, inviting environment? No. It was very unwelcoming and harsh to anybody but our own character type. It may have been the place where I worked, but I would not call it a professional environment. In my current opinion a professional environment is welcoming, inclusive and respectful to anybody. I would encourage you to try to reach beyond your current group, there is much to discover. Open up, try on different characters, roles and forms of humor. I bet that you can be more welcoming, more pleasant to work with for a broader range of character types and be more productive at the same time. Who knows you'll discover another side of yourself even. Sure you are having fun now, but it will end and it may end differently than you can currently imagine. This is really a warning. Some jokes or remarks are really not acceptable to some people, and they may get you into trouble. And, as I feel now, rightfully so. Try not to identify yourself completely with this group you are now in. If anything, they are quite rare and not universally loved.
        majkinetor 5y ago
        Dude... > We physically hurt each other. > But, was it an open, inviting environment? No. > It was very unwelcoming and harsh to anybody but our own character type I hate physical violence. You don't seem to keep it in focus here. Like I said, you extrapolate too much, its obvious now. It should be unwelcoming and harsh to other character types, because that is the character type that we need to finish the job in this ecosystem. Its even the opposite of what you claim - we have a dude who was playing according to the rules you mention, and now he "switched" to our side because he realized that sometimes, strong words is the only way to make something happen :) There is a saying here "the beating came out of heaven". > I would encourage you to try to reach beyond your current group, there is much to discover. No thanks. I am not that young as you seem to think. > I bet that you can be more welcoming, more pleasant to work with People just love to work with me - both colleagues and stakeholders, because I get the job done and because they think my reactions are unique and funny. You please continue to be pleasant, that is probably great skill to have in supermarket, not in my line of work where people expect results yesterday :) You see, you can theorize all you want, you cant fight the facts. Also, this is not set in stone - if certain situation requires me to be nice little puppy in order to get the job done, I will do it. Like I said, context is everything, and life is a mess, while you can keep pretending you play board game with strictly set rules everybody is following... > Try not to identify yourself completely with this group you are now in. If anything, they are quite rare and not universally loved. "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reflect"
wil421 5y ago
“Your idea is pure garbage” is very unprofessional. “I don’t think your idea is well thought out and lacks a clear plan” or “your idea is a terrible idea because of x, y, z” is much better. “We’ll consider your idea” to avoid confrontation because of a bad idea is sugarcoating.
- majkinetor 5y ago
  Urghhhhhh! That is exactly what I don't want to hear. Lacks a clear plan? WTF? And how come "terrible" is acceptable then ? I prefer unprofessional then :)
teekert 5y ago
Calling an idea "pure Garbage" also communicates that you have both understood the idea fully, thought about all aspects and are 100% certain that there is no value in the idea. Moreover, you have done all these things things better than the person who came up with the idea. Any reasonable person would admit that the probability that this is true is very small and you just come across as arrogant and frankly of pretty low intelligence (Dunning-Kruger). What you could say is: "I don't understand currently how this is valuable, based on assumption X, Y and Z I think that the idea would not work, why do you think it will?" You may be surprised what you will get as a response, because the person with the idea has obviously spend way more time with it than you, because you were (probably) just told about it. And when it does turn out that you were right (and the idea is not perfect), that means you have taken this opportunity and taught a colleague a valuable lesson. And all this by not saying "his or her idea it total garbage." That's just a way to make people stop telling you their ideas. There is a lot of ground between being arrogant and not having the guts to express your doubts in a respectful way.
- majkinetor 5y ago
  > Calling an idea "pure Garbage" also communicates that you have bot understood the idea fully, thought about all aspects and are 100% certain that there is no value in the idea. Moreover, you have done all these things things better than the person who came up with the idea. You are overthinking it. Nobody should think like that. > "I don't understand currently how this is valuable, based on assumption X, Y and Z I think that the idea would not work, why do you think it will?" That is similar to trying to kill potential wood fire with a bucket of water. No thanks :) > because the person with the idea has obviously spend way more time with it than you Assumptions. > There is a lot of ground between being arrogant and not having the guts to express your doubts in a respectful way. Its all about how you do it. But if person I work with on successful projects tells me that and even turns his back and go away... I am sure gonna think hard about it. Context is everything. And I can tell you that your idea is total BS and still respect you a lot. You seem to care only about the surface.
  - teekert 5y ago
    I wonder where you are from, your attitude would not fly here in the Netherlands. Likewise, I may completely fail to integrate into your culture. Do you realize that compared to you probably many people do “overthink” things? And that that expression is very relative? Or do you want to also claim that your amount of thinking is the exact right amount?
goto11 5y ago
> I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty above anything else That is not honesty or directness, that is just more colorful language. It's like saying "two plus fucking two is fucking four" is more honest than "two plus two is four". It may be more forceful, but the color just distract from the substance (which actually tend to be the point when such language is used). > Yes, some people feelings are hurt, but when I happen to cause it, I remember that 10 years old kids can survive much more brutal expressions while adults act like they are part of the mickey mouse club. Don't blame others for the failures of your communication. Grow up and take responsibility for your end of the communication.
mettamage 5y ago
I think I get where you're coming from, but I differ in what I consider to be important. Saying "your idea is pure garbage" is honest (assuming that's what you think in your mind), but it isn't accurate enough. Preferably I'm as empirically truthful as well (as in: logic + experience) while doing my best to stay concise (I'm bad at that). A phrase like "pure garbage" has two elements of which one is very troublesome and the other is sometimes fine. The one that is sometimes fine is "pure garbage" is a metaphor. You now leave it on the listener to decode that metaphor. Why not be direct and say: "Your idea is too flawed." The one that I believe to be very troublesome is that it overgeneralizes its conclusion. Ideas are in almost all cases never pure garbage. I've never said that someone's idea is pure garbage (in a good faith discussion). I have said things like: your fundamental assumption of your idea is fundamentally flawed and therefore it's not worth for me to listen to this idea any further (e.g. when someone says I should look into astrology to fix my life problems -- family members are fun and I cut them off, I know it's rude -- even for Dutch standards but I'm tired of it).

coldtea 5y ago

>I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty above anything else as it leads to more efficient execution. Does it though, or does it lead to animosity, back-stabbings, a toxic environment, discouragement and so on? Such things also have their tradeoffs.

majkinetor 5y ago
If it leads o backstabing I am will prefer not to work with you. If you act like a 3 year old kid in professional context, then you are not welcome in my environment. So this is also a kind of test - real life is ripe which MUCH more worst examples of it, and if you can't take a honest negative comment, it says a lot about you. At my current job I have a team of 4 and we can say to each other much more nasty shit then that, and I can't imagine working with such passion with anybody else (the feeling is mutual). We also accomplish x10 more then any other team.
- teekert 5y ago
  Maybe it works for your current team, but there are many people out there that are more introverted and care more about how a group feels and to them that is intimately connected to how it functions. These people are also valuable but you'd scare them away. As a result I think your team is not very diverse and inevitably you will just squash any resistance and make what your team thinks is best because more silent people (with their interesting, different perspective) won't stand up to you anymore. I think this is a recipe for failure. We did an "Insights course" [0]. It seems like you are in a team of red people (competitive, determined, strong willed), but green people (caring, sharing, encouraging) people will have bad time there. Same for precise, deliberate, questioning individuals. I think it is good to consider how the way you communicate can affect others. Honestly based on what you are saying I would like working with you, I too have a big mouth. But don't you want to at least try to be a person that can work with any character type? And does it matter who is welcome in your environment? Sometimes people are stuck with you, it seems like when they don't match your expectations, you are going to give them a bad time. [0] https://www.mudamasters.com/en/personal-growth-personality/insights-discovery-part-1-4-colors https://www.mudamasters.com/en/personal-growth-personality/i...
  - majkinetor 5y ago
    Hey, this is a big world, to each his own :) One of the most important thing in working environment is to enjoy it. If that is not your cup of tea, no need to push it or tell me my environment is wrong. Yes, we are "red people" I guess :) > Honestly based on what you are saying I would like working with you, I too have a big mouth. You can :) If you don't mind working remote and have good programming skillz and like big gov projects feel free to contact me :) > Sometimes people are stuck with you Then I will try to unstack :)
    - teekert 5y ago
      :) Thanx for the offer but I'm quite fine with where I am. I just want to add some more thoughts, I feel in a sense that I'm talking to past me. You see, Bro, I get it. I worked in a supermarket when I was younger, we constantly insulted each other's mother and we said multiple things a day that would more than embarrass us should we ever become POTUS. We physically hurt each other. And I think back of those times with feelings of warmth in my heart. But, was it an open, inviting environment? No. It was very unwelcoming and harsh to anybody but our own character type. It may have been the place where I worked, but I would not call it a professional environment. In my current opinion a professional environment is welcoming, inclusive and respectful to anybody. I would encourage you to try to reach beyond your current group, there is much to discover. Open up, try on different characters, roles and forms of humor. I bet that you can be more welcoming, more pleasant to work with for a broader range of character types and be more productive at the same time. Who knows you'll discover another side of yourself even. Sure you are having fun now, but it will end and it may end differently than you can currently imagine. This is really a warning. Some jokes or remarks are really not acceptable to some people, and they may get you into trouble. And, as I feel now, rightfully so. Try not to identify yourself completely with this group you are now in. If anything, they are quite rare and not universally loved.
      - majkinetor 5y ago
        Dude... > We physically hurt each other. > But, was it an open, inviting environment? No. > It was very unwelcoming and harsh to anybody but our own character type I hate physical violence. You don't seem to keep it in focus here. Like I said, you extrapolate too much, its obvious now. It should be unwelcoming and harsh to other character types, because that is the character type that we need to finish the job in this ecosystem. Its even the opposite of what you claim - we have a dude who was playing according to the rules you mention, and now he "switched" to our side because he realized that sometimes, strong words is the only way to make something happen :) There is a saying here "the beating came out of heaven". > I would encourage you to try to reach beyond your current group, there is much to discover. No thanks. I am not that young as you seem to think. > I bet that you can be more welcoming, more pleasant to work with People just love to work with me - both colleagues and stakeholders, because I get the job done and because they think my reactions are unique and funny. You please continue to be pleasant, that is probably great skill to have in supermarket, not in my line of work where people expect results yesterday :) You see, you can theorize all you want, you cant fight the facts. Also, this is not set in stone - if certain situation requires me to be nice little puppy in order to get the job done, I will do it. Like I said, context is everything, and life is a mess, while you can keep pretending you play board game with strictly set rules everybody is following... > Try not to identify yourself completely with this group you are now in. If anything, they are quite rare and not universally loved. "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reflect"

wil421 5y ago

“Your idea is pure garbage” is very unprofessional. “I don’t think your idea is well thought out and lacks a clear plan” or “your idea is a terrible idea because of x, y, z” is much better. “We’ll consider your idea” to avoid confrontation because of a bad idea is sugarcoating.

majkinetor 5y ago
Urghhhhhh! That is exactly what I don't want to hear. Lacks a clear plan? WTF? And how come "terrible" is acceptable then ? I prefer unprofessional then :)

teekert 5y ago

Calling an idea "pure Garbage" also communicates that you have both understood the idea fully, thought about all aspects and are 100% certain that there is no value in the idea. Moreover, you have done all these things things better than the person who came up with the idea. Any reasonable person would admit that the probability that this is true is very small and you just come across as arrogant and frankly of pretty low intelligence (Dunning-Kruger). What you could say is: "I don't understand currently how this is valuable, based on assumption X, Y and Z I think that the idea would not work, why do you think it will?" You may be surprised what you will get as a response, because the person with the idea has obviously spend way more time with it than you, because you were (probably) just told about it. And when it does turn out that you were right (and the idea is not perfect), that means you have taken this opportunity and taught a colleague a valuable lesson. And all this by not saying "his or her idea it total garbage." That's just a way to make people stop telling you their ideas. There is a lot of ground between being arrogant and not having the guts to express your doubts in a respectful way.

majkinetor 5y ago
> Calling an idea "pure Garbage" also communicates that you have bot understood the idea fully, thought about all aspects and are 100% certain that there is no value in the idea. Moreover, you have done all these things things better than the person who came up with the idea. You are overthinking it. Nobody should think like that. > "I don't understand currently how this is valuable, based on assumption X, Y and Z I think that the idea would not work, why do you think it will?" That is similar to trying to kill potential wood fire with a bucket of water. No thanks :) > because the person with the idea has obviously spend way more time with it than you Assumptions. > There is a lot of ground between being arrogant and not having the guts to express your doubts in a respectful way. Its all about how you do it. But if person I work with on successful projects tells me that and even turns his back and go away... I am sure gonna think hard about it. Context is everything. And I can tell you that your idea is total BS and still respect you a lot. You seem to care only about the surface.
- teekert 5y ago
  I wonder where you are from, your attitude would not fly here in the Netherlands. Likewise, I may completely fail to integrate into your culture. Do you realize that compared to you probably many people do “overthink” things? And that that expression is very relative? Or do you want to also claim that your amount of thinking is the exact right amount?

goto11 5y ago

> I prefer "your idea is pure garbage" over "it needs more work" because I want honesty above anything else That is not honesty or directness, that is just more colorful language. It's like saying "two plus fucking two is fucking four" is more honest than "two plus two is four". It may be more forceful, but the color just distract from the substance (which actually tend to be the point when such language is used). > Yes, some people feelings are hurt, but when I happen to cause it, I remember that 10 years old kids can survive much more brutal expressions while adults act like they are part of the mickey mouse club. Don't blame others for the failures of your communication. Grow up and take responsibility for your end of the communication.

mettamage 5y ago

I think I get where you're coming from, but I differ in what I consider to be important. Saying "your idea is pure garbage" is honest (assuming that's what you think in your mind), but it isn't accurate enough. Preferably I'm as empirically truthful as well (as in: logic + experience) while doing my best to stay concise (I'm bad at that). A phrase like "pure garbage" has two elements of which one is very troublesome and the other is sometimes fine. The one that is sometimes fine is "pure garbage" is a metaphor. You now leave it on the listener to decode that metaphor. Why not be direct and say: "Your idea is too flawed." The one that I believe to be very troublesome is that it overgeneralizes its conclusion. Ideas are in almost all cases never pure garbage. I've never said that someone's idea is pure garbage (in a good faith discussion). I have said things like: your fundamental assumption of your idea is fundamentally flawed and therefore it's not worth for me to listen to this idea any further (e.g. when someone says I should look into astrology to fix my life problems -- family members are fun and I cut them off, I know it's rude -- even for Dutch standards but I'm tired of it).