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It's not necessarily obvious. Planetary weather is a chaotic system and even for somewhat stable phenomenon like the gulf stream it's not a question of if it w

It's not necessarily obvious. Planetary weather is a chaotic system and even for somewhat stable phenomenon like the gulf stream it's not a question of if it will collapse but when. Humans are likely speeding up the collapse but it will eventually happen regardless. If I had to choose between technological progress and stewardship, I'd pick technological progress because that's our only real chance at long-term survival. We should really attempt to do both and better align the hunt for that extra buck with both tech progress and stewardship (ahem carbon tax) rather than demonizing it.

jacquesm 5y ago
The number of dimensions along which we are destroying the habitat we depend on is staggering. Deforestation (killing off one of the most efficient carbon sinks, causing soil erosion, changing the albedo, habitat destruction, change in water management), CO2 emissions, methane emissions, a ridiculously high per-capita energy budget in the western world where the only cap is how much money you are willing to spend, killing off numerous species and so on. We are bad stewards. All of these are optional. Technology can help to sustain life in space, I'm sure it will enable us to sustain life here on earth. But for how many, and with what quality of life?
- ThomPete 5y ago
  The number of dimensions we have improved life for humans in an environment which have always been hostile not only to humans but to the 99.9999% of all species ever existed it wiped out is quite a lot more staggering. Nature didn't give us a safe and friendly environment we made unsafe, it gave us a hostile and dangerous environment we have made safe by using technology to impact the planet to better suit us. All impacts have externalities but I take those any day over just waiting for some catastrophe to happen whether meteors, super vulcanos or any other real threat that is out there lurking. Technology is the sole reason we are 8 billion people on this planet and still are most better fed than 2 billion people were 150 years ago. Living on this planet IS life in space and we are luckily constantly improving our ability to cope. All solutions create new problems but these problems are better problems to have.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    In the short term, sure. But what if this is a local maximum which accidentally cut off all viable future branches? A bit of caution when making these irreversible decisions would go a long way. Wiping out the rest of the planet to give us a safe habitat may have been a giant mistake, monocultures tend to end bad.
    - ThomPete 5y ago
      we are not wiping out the rest of the planet, we are manipulating it into better serving us through thd use of technology. We are potentially able to deal with ex. astroid impact which no other species is able to, in my book that counts for way more.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        > we are not wiping out the rest of the planet, we are manipulating it into better serving us through thd use of technology. Right. Let's say we're not going to agree on this and leave it at that.
        ThomPete 5y ago
        sure
- virgilp 5y ago
  > Deforestation It's not that clear-cut: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/planet-earth-has-more-trees-than-it-did-35-years-ago/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/planet-earth-has-more...
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Number of trees is a bad metric, you need to know the amount of area available for gas exchange, which takes a long time to build up after a clearcut and 'old growth' forest is a complete ecosystem, something which a young planted forest can only aspire to become one day. And that's before we get into the hardwood vs softwood differences in growth speed.
    - lazide 5y ago
      If you’re trying to sequester carbon, fast (new) growth and softwood is the way to go correct?
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        In the short term: yes, but it is rather less dense than hardwood so you'll end up with a lot more acreage. Poplar/Maple/Oak/Pine are all good options, with the slow growers storing the carbon for the longest time, and even when not harvested they won't rot nearly as fast (rot is best looked at as slow burning in this context). And then not to harvest them until they die of 'natural causes', hopefully not a forest fire.
        lazide 5y ago
        If you're trying to sequester carbon, you need to lock up that carbon somewhere - and cutting it down and putting it somewhere it will stay intact the longest seems like the best bet? A house, or a building for instance. If it is in a forest long term (same trees), sequestration flat lines after awhile no? I'm not saying I don't like trees - far from it, I own 90 acres of timberland! I'm pointing out that pulling carbon from the atmosphere as fast as possible vs a pretty piece of old growth timber are two different goals with different tradeoffs.
- tbrownaw 5y ago
  > one of the most efficient carbon sinks I thought forests tended to be pretty much neutral once they get old enough for trees to start dying and decomposing.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    There are quite a few species that produce wood that won't decompose nearly as fast as it grew, and we are a good 100 years away from reaching that limit for newly planted forests.
    - lazide 5y ago
      But how fast do they pull carbon from the atmosphere over that time? If you take some fast growing trees, harvest them just as the curve starts to slow, put that wood to use somewhere it won't rot, and plant new trees that also fast grow - seems like you'd pull out more in aggregate? Personally I'm more of a fan of the geo-weathering type sequestration plans, but if if we have a target, might as well optimize for it?

jacquesm 5y ago

The number of dimensions along which we are destroying the habitat we depend on is staggering. Deforestation (killing off one of the most efficient carbon sinks, causing soil erosion, changing the albedo, habitat destruction, change in water management), CO2 emissions, methane emissions, a ridiculously high per-capita energy budget in the western world where the only cap is how much money you are willing to spend, killing off numerous species and so on. We are bad stewards. All of these are optional. Technology can help to sustain life in space, I'm sure it will enable us to sustain life here on earth. But for how many, and with what quality of life?

ThomPete 5y ago
The number of dimensions we have improved life for humans in an environment which have always been hostile not only to humans but to the 99.9999% of all species ever existed it wiped out is quite a lot more staggering. Nature didn't give us a safe and friendly environment we made unsafe, it gave us a hostile and dangerous environment we have made safe by using technology to impact the planet to better suit us. All impacts have externalities but I take those any day over just waiting for some catastrophe to happen whether meteors, super vulcanos or any other real threat that is out there lurking. Technology is the sole reason we are 8 billion people on this planet and still are most better fed than 2 billion people were 150 years ago. Living on this planet IS life in space and we are luckily constantly improving our ability to cope. All solutions create new problems but these problems are better problems to have.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  In the short term, sure. But what if this is a local maximum which accidentally cut off all viable future branches? A bit of caution when making these irreversible decisions would go a long way. Wiping out the rest of the planet to give us a safe habitat may have been a giant mistake, monocultures tend to end bad.
  - ThomPete 5y ago
    we are not wiping out the rest of the planet, we are manipulating it into better serving us through thd use of technology. We are potentially able to deal with ex. astroid impact which no other species is able to, in my book that counts for way more.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > we are not wiping out the rest of the planet, we are manipulating it into better serving us through thd use of technology. Right. Let's say we're not going to agree on this and leave it at that.
      - ThomPete 5y ago
        sure
virgilp 5y ago
> Deforestation It's not that clear-cut: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/planet-earth-has-more-trees-than-it-did-35-years-ago/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/planet-earth-has-more...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Number of trees is a bad metric, you need to know the amount of area available for gas exchange, which takes a long time to build up after a clearcut and 'old growth' forest is a complete ecosystem, something which a young planted forest can only aspire to become one day. And that's before we get into the hardwood vs softwood differences in growth speed.
  - lazide 5y ago
    If you’re trying to sequester carbon, fast (new) growth and softwood is the way to go correct?
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      In the short term: yes, but it is rather less dense than hardwood so you'll end up with a lot more acreage. Poplar/Maple/Oak/Pine are all good options, with the slow growers storing the carbon for the longest time, and even when not harvested they won't rot nearly as fast (rot is best looked at as slow burning in this context). And then not to harvest them until they die of 'natural causes', hopefully not a forest fire.
      - lazide 5y ago
        If you're trying to sequester carbon, you need to lock up that carbon somewhere - and cutting it down and putting it somewhere it will stay intact the longest seems like the best bet? A house, or a building for instance. If it is in a forest long term (same trees), sequestration flat lines after awhile no? I'm not saying I don't like trees - far from it, I own 90 acres of timberland! I'm pointing out that pulling carbon from the atmosphere as fast as possible vs a pretty piece of old growth timber are two different goals with different tradeoffs.
tbrownaw 5y ago
> one of the most efficient carbon sinks I thought forests tended to be pretty much neutral once they get old enough for trees to start dying and decomposing.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There are quite a few species that produce wood that won't decompose nearly as fast as it grew, and we are a good 100 years away from reaching that limit for newly planted forests.
  - lazide 5y ago
    But how fast do they pull carbon from the atmosphere over that time? If you take some fast growing trees, harvest them just as the curve starts to slow, put that wood to use somewhere it won't rot, and plant new trees that also fast grow - seems like you'd pull out more in aggregate? Personally I'm more of a fan of the geo-weathering type sequestration plans, but if if we have a target, might as well optimize for it?