5 ms·

Heartbreaking. The US criminal justice system is a shame.

oblio 5y ago
I don't think it's a shame. It's intentional. Considering the fact that the US prison population is heavily skewed in one direction, that the US has the highest per capita prison population, that prison populations are used as forced labor, I'm quite convinced it's intentional. The small number of people that are accidentally targeted unintentionally are just collateral damage nobody really cares about.
- sodality2 5y ago
  It's a shame that it's intentional, and it's a failure of what a good prison system should be like. I often hear "oh well {criminal justice system, healthcare, insert other bad industry} is not a failure because it's doing its intended purpose, which is profit". No, that's the current goal of the system running it. The actual, intended purpose, in a functioning society, is to {serve fair punishments and rehabilitate, enhance quality of health, etc}.
  - smhost 5y ago
    > The actual, intended purpose, in a functioning society, is to {serve fair punishments and rehabilitate, enhance quality of health, etc}. I'm not sure which history books you've been reading, but modern police were invented in the 17th and 18th centuries as brutal forms of population control. In America, the "actual, intended purpose" was to be a genocidal force that clears the land of Amerindians, to patrol the slaves, to terrorize the workers, and so on. In the South, you can trace the history of police departments directly to Confederate troops, who, immediately after losing the war, rounded up people and threw them in prison on fabricated charges. To a lot of people, it was as if the war never happened. The fact that there was no reign of terror in the south tells you everything you need to know. And the slavery continues to this day. So I have no idea what you mean when you talk about this fantastical "intended purpose".
    - akomtu 5y ago
      We can trace the history of police all the way back to vikings, neanderthals or even to single celled organisms, but all that would be of little use to deal with the today's prison system.
      - smhost 5y ago
        I'm not naturalizing organized violence, you are. I'm talking about the history of one institution and its forms of reproduction. How are you going to "deal" with today's prison system without understanding how it reproduces itself (through the law, through the indoctrination of people such as yourself, etc)?
        akomtu 5y ago
        History of institution has no bearing on actions of individuals in this institution today. What has bearing is policies that exist today. Not history of those policies, but their actual current state.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      There are several lines of evolution for modern policing. The US instance is one. Robbert Peele's "Peelian Principles" (UK) are another, which is how the UK ended up with a largely unarmed and civillian institution "policing by consent". (It also has its darker elements, but that's the thumbnail sketch.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles A French "gendarme" is literally a "man at arms", and is derived from military forces, representing a third tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie
      - smhost 5y ago
        There are no "lines of evolution" like carcinization for modern policing. They were caused by the same social and political necessities and they serve the same function.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  Hey amigo, looks like you're confusing "shame" and "unintentional" because you have a habit of conversing in the tone of disputation. No judgements! I only mention because it was a boon when someone pointed out i had a similar habit
  - slapfrog 5y ago
    > a habit of conversing in the tone of disputation. Thank you for putting words to this. I think it's something I've struggled with as well.
- okprod 5y ago
  Companies that own and operate prisons in the US are big business
  - Arrath 5y ago
    Unfortunately. That very much should not be a business at all.
- philwelch 5y ago
  This conspiracy theory doesn't really check out. Private prisons exist, but only account for 8% of the US prison population. There's probably a larger vested interest from corrections officer unions than from private prison contractors. Regardless, there isn't even a need to find some shadowy special interest to explain the high incarceration rates in the US, when the laws that led to those high incarceration rates were passed very publicly for very straightforward reasons: to curb the late-20th-century crime wave of the 1970's-1990's. This was a major, high-profile political issue, and the majority of voters at the time favored "tough-on-crime" measures that led to mandatory sentences, longer sentences, three-strikes laws, and fewer judicial prerogatives. That's why they elected the people who promised to pass those laws before getting elected and kept those promises after being elected. And just like every other well-intended law that's ever been passed, there were unintended consequences that we can and should fix.
  - gentleman11 5y ago
    The USA also has 22% of all prisoners globally
  - sjtindell 5y ago
    It’s also intentional in that penitentiaries and prisons from the start in America were an incredibly racist endeavor. As was the response to the “crime waves” of that time period you mentioned. The early prisons, both private and public, were a Protestant method of punishment involving hard labor to cleanse you of your sins. But they were quickly co-opted as a way to make money, whether by labor for the prison itself or by the state leasing convicts to corporations. And after slavery as a way to keep African American people enslaved. If you’ve never seen documentaries on Angola, it’s horrifying the direct lineage of racism visible. Lines of black men in chains, in fields, picking cotton, under the watch of white guards on horseback…in the year 1960 and beyond. Wardens who had property on the plantation prisons of Arkansas and used black prisoners who weren’t in the fields as “house boys”. That’s always been and is today one intentional use for prisons.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    I don’t believe these were ever that well intentioned. Race and socioeconomic status was not something unseen and unknown to the politicians, voters, and every one else involved. There’s a reason some one people like Bernie Sanders were against the 1992 crime bill. Which many republicans and democrats were for. To say the people for it were well intentioned when Bernie and others were telling them of the consequences and having already seen the negative consequences up to that point shows these were not unintended and not well intentioned.
- cronix 5y ago
  > that prison populations are used as forced labor I was recently reminded of this due to a strange story having to do with covid and a shortage of license plates in Washington state, due to "social distancing" in the DOC. So that state contracted with another state whose prisoners were still incarcerated and still hard at work making license plates. > The DOC has experienced issues since last summer, when compliance with social-distancing requirements slowed production, according to spokesperson Rachel Ericson. To address the issue, the agency has increased staffing and started outsourcing some production on July 31. > License plates first began to be manufactured by individuals incarcerated at the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla in 1923. It’s now one of 43 prison factories around the country that produce plates for 40 states and the federal government. Original: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-grappling-with-license-plate-shortage-as-pandemic-slows-production/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-g... Outline (no paywall): https://outline.com/YnDVG6 https://outline.com/YnDVG6

I don't think it's a shame. It's intentional. Considering the fact that the US prison population is heavily skewed in one direction, that the US has the highest per capita prison population, that prison populations are used as forced labor, I'm quite convinced it's intentional. The small number of people that are accidentally targeted unintentionally are just collateral damage nobody really cares about.

sodality2 5y ago
It's a shame that it's intentional, and it's a failure of what a good prison system should be like. I often hear "oh well {criminal justice system, healthcare, insert other bad industry} is not a failure because it's doing its intended purpose, which is profit". No, that's the current goal of the system running it. The actual, intended purpose, in a functioning society, is to {serve fair punishments and rehabilitate, enhance quality of health, etc}.
- smhost 5y ago
  > The actual, intended purpose, in a functioning society, is to {serve fair punishments and rehabilitate, enhance quality of health, etc}. I'm not sure which history books you've been reading, but modern police were invented in the 17th and 18th centuries as brutal forms of population control. In America, the "actual, intended purpose" was to be a genocidal force that clears the land of Amerindians, to patrol the slaves, to terrorize the workers, and so on. In the South, you can trace the history of police departments directly to Confederate troops, who, immediately after losing the war, rounded up people and threw them in prison on fabricated charges. To a lot of people, it was as if the war never happened. The fact that there was no reign of terror in the south tells you everything you need to know. And the slavery continues to this day. So I have no idea what you mean when you talk about this fantastical "intended purpose".
  - akomtu 5y ago
    We can trace the history of police all the way back to vikings, neanderthals or even to single celled organisms, but all that would be of little use to deal with the today's prison system.
    - smhost 5y ago
      I'm not naturalizing organized violence, you are. I'm talking about the history of one institution and its forms of reproduction. How are you going to "deal" with today's prison system without understanding how it reproduces itself (through the law, through the indoctrination of people such as yourself, etc)?
      - akomtu 5y ago
        History of institution has no bearing on actions of individuals in this institution today. What has bearing is policies that exist today. Not history of those policies, but their actual current state.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    There are several lines of evolution for modern policing. The US instance is one. Robbert Peele's "Peelian Principles" (UK) are another, which is how the UK ended up with a largely unarmed and civillian institution "policing by consent". (It also has its darker elements, but that's the thumbnail sketch.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles A French "gendarme" is literally a "man at arms", and is derived from military forces, representing a third tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie
    - smhost 5y ago
      There are no "lines of evolution" like carcinization for modern policing. They were caused by the same social and political necessities and they serve the same function.
droopyEyelids 5y ago
Hey amigo, looks like you're confusing "shame" and "unintentional" because you have a habit of conversing in the tone of disputation. No judgements! I only mention because it was a boon when someone pointed out i had a similar habit
- slapfrog 5y ago
  > a habit of conversing in the tone of disputation. Thank you for putting words to this. I think it's something I've struggled with as well.
okprod 5y ago
Companies that own and operate prisons in the US are big business
- Arrath 5y ago
  Unfortunately. That very much should not be a business at all.
philwelch 5y ago
This conspiracy theory doesn't really check out. Private prisons exist, but only account for 8% of the US prison population. There's probably a larger vested interest from corrections officer unions than from private prison contractors. Regardless, there isn't even a need to find some shadowy special interest to explain the high incarceration rates in the US, when the laws that led to those high incarceration rates were passed very publicly for very straightforward reasons: to curb the late-20th-century crime wave of the 1970's-1990's. This was a major, high-profile political issue, and the majority of voters at the time favored "tough-on-crime" measures that led to mandatory sentences, longer sentences, three-strikes laws, and fewer judicial prerogatives. That's why they elected the people who promised to pass those laws before getting elected and kept those promises after being elected. And just like every other well-intended law that's ever been passed, there were unintended consequences that we can and should fix.
- gentleman11 5y ago
  The USA also has 22% of all prisoners globally
- sjtindell 5y ago
  It’s also intentional in that penitentiaries and prisons from the start in America were an incredibly racist endeavor. As was the response to the “crime waves” of that time period you mentioned. The early prisons, both private and public, were a Protestant method of punishment involving hard labor to cleanse you of your sins. But they were quickly co-opted as a way to make money, whether by labor for the prison itself or by the state leasing convicts to corporations. And after slavery as a way to keep African American people enslaved. If you’ve never seen documentaries on Angola, it’s horrifying the direct lineage of racism visible. Lines of black men in chains, in fields, picking cotton, under the watch of white guards on horseback…in the year 1960 and beyond. Wardens who had property on the plantation prisons of Arkansas and used black prisoners who weren’t in the fields as “house boys”. That’s always been and is today one intentional use for prisons.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  I don’t believe these were ever that well intentioned. Race and socioeconomic status was not something unseen and unknown to the politicians, voters, and every one else involved. There’s a reason some one people like Bernie Sanders were against the 1992 crime bill. Which many republicans and democrats were for. To say the people for it were well intentioned when Bernie and others were telling them of the consequences and having already seen the negative consequences up to that point shows these were not unintended and not well intentioned.
cronix 5y ago
> that prison populations are used as forced labor I was recently reminded of this due to a strange story having to do with covid and a shortage of license plates in Washington state, due to "social distancing" in the DOC. So that state contracted with another state whose prisoners were still incarcerated and still hard at work making license plates. > The DOC has experienced issues since last summer, when compliance with social-distancing requirements slowed production, according to spokesperson Rachel Ericson. To address the issue, the agency has increased staffing and started outsourcing some production on July 31. > License plates first began to be manufactured by individuals incarcerated at the Washington State Penitentiary in Walla Walla in 1923. It’s now one of 43 prison factories around the country that produce plates for 40 states and the federal government. Original: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-grappling-with-license-plate-shortage-as-pandemic-slows-production/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-g... Outline (no paywall): https://outline.com/YnDVG6 https://outline.com/YnDVG6