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>turn their guns outward Different kinds of calibre guns, so far PRC has not brought out the big ones nor firing with intent to kill. PRC foreign propaganda is

>turn their guns outward Different kinds of calibre guns, so far PRC has not brought out the big ones nor firing with intent to kill. PRC foreign propaganda is still overwhelmingly boring "tell china story well", distinctively different from Russian troll farms. They're fundamentally different attack vectors. Both also influence diaspora, as does every country. There's just more Chinese abroad with perspective of both systems, and frankly the western narrative is frequently blatantly misinformed that most don't see defending the homeland as promoting illiberalism. Most are shocked at how quickly liberal minds can be brainwashed despite free media. Still, actual current day analysis shows PRC is doing very little relative to other players contrary to these headlines. Maybe still developing capabilities, or keeping options in reserve. >counter-measures IMO this is just an asymmetry between liberal and illiberal systems that can't be bridged without the former adopting tools from the latter - which by all accounts is happening, i.e. the China Initiative is Mccarthyism / red scare redux. Kill chicken to scare monkey works everywhere. Manufactured consent like this article overblowing actual state of PRC influence ops which is continuation of coordinated anti-China reporting since Trump. As always fight propaganda with propaganda, but ultimately, diaspora / immigrants in western countries have freedom to root for their homeland. This includes pro-CCP PRC nationals, and even the ones who renounce PRC citizenship after naturalization. >As far as coordinated pro-CCP behavior on HN My general feeling of the "coordinated pro-CCP" phenomenon is that there are many pro-China diaspora in western platforms whose threshold for engaging anti-China pieces is to downvote and move on. Some spaces (like tech) have more Chinese than baseline, so you'd expect to see the effect multiplied. IMO most do it for themselves for tribalism, which is natural behaviour. I don't subscribe that there's anything ironic about PRC nationalists hoping over GFC to "enjoy" free speech. VPN access is cheap, use not strictly enforced, accessing western internet is not some verboten activity like many westerners envisions it to be, it's entertainment. It's like using VPN to circumvent geofenced media, except for nationalists who like to troll. Reality is there's much more Chinese with English fluency and hopping the GFC is much easier than vice versa. The amount of westerners who have mandarin fluency and ability to comment on weibo is miniscule. And they don't need to since lots of pro-China diaspora / tankies on western platforms to troll, whereas Chinese nationals have to actively seek westerners over GFC to troll. VPN is just a premium subscription to participate in another cultural war. Culture wars are sad.

fortuna86 5y ago
> Different kinds of calibre guns I'm sorry but you aren't paying attention to recent developments. Chinese trolls are attaching themselves to wedge issues in the US culture war (guns, BLM, etc.) in the same way Russia did, as a strategy of general harm. Also vaccine related disinfo isn't general/vague or long term in it's harm, it's doing real damage today. https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-china-trolls-dubbed-spamouflage-dragon-flood-social-media-with-anti-us-propaganda-says-graphika-report https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-china-trolls-dubbed-spamou... > My general feeling of the "coordinated pro-CCP" phenomenon is that there are many pro-China diaspora in western platforms whose threshold for engaging anti-China pieces is to downvote and move on. The more that China diaspora see any criticism of the Chinese Government as criticism of themselves, the wider and more difficult to bridge the gap becomes. > IMO most do it for themselves for tribalism, which is natural behaviour. That was my point, everyone has a bit of nationalist in them. But the behavior i've observed from Chinese nationalists far out paces anything else i've seen. I fear the consequences of this trend, as if the Chinese government decides to start making more overt their current campaign of covert aggression, most Chinese will simple fall in line as they've been conditioned to do for the past decade. > accessing western internet is not some verboten activity like many westerners envisions it to be, it's entertainment. As long as your don't say the wrong thing, of course. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-us... I've seen a lot of westerners in HK, China, etc. take a blasé attitude towards crackdowns because they are convinced they are safe (which is mostly accurate). You do not and should not speak for natives in this regard. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3143207/my-home-hong-kongs-foreign-residents-say-they-have-no-plans https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3143207/... Re: VPNS, according to my friends in the mainland VPN's are becoming more and more unreliable. This is purposeful.
- dirtyid 5y ago
  >paying attention to recent developments I follow the subject closely. The "no intent to kill" pertains to scope of Chinese influence operations, in terms of harm they're minimal relative to other actors. IRC the dailybeast link was about PRC trolls mocking lockdown skepticism, listening to them would have helped not harmed. These events do not occuring in void, PRC/US responds to each other's disinformation efforts. And will continue to, that's expected, what's unexpected IMO is PRC isn't pushing propaganda nearly that hard according to recent analysis. >bridge the gap becomes No one's figured out a solution to tribalism. Much of the "blame CCP but not Chinese people '' narrative out there does not feel genuine, doubting western criticisms is not misplaced. Which overlooks the point that the propaganda environment with competing antithetical claims is designed to fracture. The more absurd narrative west feeds their populus, which diaspora sees through, the more the gap continues to widen. >should not speak for natives in this regard ... >VPN's are becoming more and more unreliable Why not? I follow developments in PRC cyber policy and deal with it myself back and forth. I didn't claim it was safe to conduct anti-state activities, even nationalists get punished for using VPN occasionally. Overall it's fine, like torrenting. Sometimes copyright letters get sent out to unsuspecting victims, but most people slide by. VPN more unreliable, especially leading up to CCP centennial, but seems like there's more Chinese nationalists trolling abroad than ever, and since current analysis suggest CCP coordinated disinfo is not large, it's fair to presume whatever VPN and cyber policies changes, it hasn't substantially impeded PRC ability to interact with abroad. To circle back on topic, the condition is such that lots of genuine PRC voices are making it’s way over the GFC, but not vice versa. That’s just unfortunate asymmetry between open and close internet, and it’s a problem west needs to deal with, so far strategy seems to be maligning PRC voices as inauthentic shills / 50c with the aim of discrediting pro-China or anti-west opinions. Narrative has been manufactured to the point where PRC discussions in many spaces online are saturated with useful idiots calling for bans of pro-China opinions because it must be state funded 50c activity. Like why even highlight the two anti-BBC replies above, lots of people, especially diaspora from the global south, do not trust the FVEY media machine, it's staple compaint in variety of reporting on IR news.

fortuna86 5y ago

> Different kinds of calibre guns I'm sorry but you aren't paying attention to recent developments. Chinese trolls are attaching themselves to wedge issues in the US culture war (guns, BLM, etc.) in the same way Russia did, as a strategy of general harm. Also vaccine related disinfo isn't general/vague or long term in it's harm, it's doing real damage today. https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-china-trolls-dubbed-spamouflage-dragon-flood-social-media-with-anti-us-propaganda-says-graphika-report https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-china-trolls-dubbed-spamou... > My general feeling of the "coordinated pro-CCP" phenomenon is that there are many pro-China diaspora in western platforms whose threshold for engaging anti-China pieces is to downvote and move on. The more that China diaspora see any criticism of the Chinese Government as criticism of themselves, the wider and more difficult to bridge the gap becomes. > IMO most do it for themselves for tribalism, which is natural behaviour. That was my point, everyone has a bit of nationalist in them. But the behavior i've observed from Chinese nationalists far out paces anything else i've seen. I fear the consequences of this trend, as if the Chinese government decides to start making more overt their current campaign of covert aggression, most Chinese will simple fall in line as they've been conditioned to do for the past decade. > accessing western internet is not some verboten activity like many westerners envisions it to be, it's entertainment. As long as your don't say the wrong thing, of course. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-us... I've seen a lot of westerners in HK, China, etc. take a blasé attitude towards crackdowns because they are convinced they are safe (which is mostly accurate). You do not and should not speak for natives in this regard. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3143207/my-home-hong-kongs-foreign-residents-say-they-have-no-plans https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/society/article/3143207/... Re: VPNS, according to my friends in the mainland VPN's are becoming more and more unreliable. This is purposeful.

dirtyid 5y ago
>paying attention to recent developments I follow the subject closely. The "no intent to kill" pertains to scope of Chinese influence operations, in terms of harm they're minimal relative to other actors. IRC the dailybeast link was about PRC trolls mocking lockdown skepticism, listening to them would have helped not harmed. These events do not occuring in void, PRC/US responds to each other's disinformation efforts. And will continue to, that's expected, what's unexpected IMO is PRC isn't pushing propaganda nearly that hard according to recent analysis. >bridge the gap becomes No one's figured out a solution to tribalism. Much of the "blame CCP but not Chinese people '' narrative out there does not feel genuine, doubting western criticisms is not misplaced. Which overlooks the point that the propaganda environment with competing antithetical claims is designed to fracture. The more absurd narrative west feeds their populus, which diaspora sees through, the more the gap continues to widen. >should not speak for natives in this regard ... >VPN's are becoming more and more unreliable Why not? I follow developments in PRC cyber policy and deal with it myself back and forth. I didn't claim it was safe to conduct anti-state activities, even nationalists get punished for using VPN occasionally. Overall it's fine, like torrenting. Sometimes copyright letters get sent out to unsuspecting victims, but most people slide by. VPN more unreliable, especially leading up to CCP centennial, but seems like there's more Chinese nationalists trolling abroad than ever, and since current analysis suggest CCP coordinated disinfo is not large, it's fair to presume whatever VPN and cyber policies changes, it hasn't substantially impeded PRC ability to interact with abroad. To circle back on topic, the condition is such that lots of genuine PRC voices are making it’s way over the GFC, but not vice versa. That’s just unfortunate asymmetry between open and close internet, and it’s a problem west needs to deal with, so far strategy seems to be maligning PRC voices as inauthentic shills / 50c with the aim of discrediting pro-China or anti-west opinions. Narrative has been manufactured to the point where PRC discussions in many spaces online are saturated with useful idiots calling for bans of pro-China opinions because it must be state funded 50c activity. Like why even highlight the two anti-BBC replies above, lots of people, especially diaspora from the global south, do not trust the FVEY media machine, it's staple compaint in variety of reporting on IR news.