4 ms·

Herd immunity can also be achieved by the anti-vax people catching the virus. They can develop immunity by being sick instead of getting a shot.

by wusher 5y ago

SavantIdiot 5y ago
Exactly. That's my point. It is unavoidable.
- Animats 5y ago
  We can hope. Some people have already become ill from COVID more than once.[1] This is rare, but it happens. Immunity from vaccination seems to be stronger than immunity from having the disease, but it's too early to be sure. How long vaccine immunity lasts is an open question. So far, it's at least N months, where N is how long the vaccines have been in wide use. Beyond that is speculation. [1] https://www.brgeneral.org/news-blog/2021/july/can-i-get-covid-more-than-once-/ https://www.brgeneral.org/news-blog/2021/july/can-i-get-covi...
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    > Immunity from vaccination seems to be stronger than immunity from having the disease, but it's too early to be sure Unless anyone can cite peer-reviewed sources that indicate otherwise, there doesn't appear to be any conclusive evidence on this point. In fact these publications provide evidence that naturally acquired immunity is just as effective as vaccination [1][2] ([2] hasn't been peer-reviewed yet). > How long vaccine immunity lasts is an open question. So far, it's at least N months, where N is how long the vaccines have been in wide use. Beyond that is speculation. I'm interested in recent peer-reviewed literature supporting this point, and would be grateful if anyone could share links. [1] SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf [2] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v3.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...
sjg007 5y ago
Along with an accompanying crush of ICU hospitalizations and deaths.
- mrhands69 5y ago
  Why haven't we spent time bolstering healthcare then? Why have all the field hospitals been destroyed as fast as they were put up?
  - amalter 5y ago
    We don't have enough doctors and nurses to staff the ICU beds bolted to the floors of the hospital. Those field hospitals are surge capacity; and work with hurricanes and earthquakes where a single part of the country is affected. You can bring in volunteers and reservists from other areas to create capacity. When the emergency is everywhere, and on-going, all of your surge capacity is gone.
    - mrhands69 5y ago
      The emergency has been everywhere and ongoing for almost 2 years now. At what point do they make an effort and the government says "Hey, let's permanently bolster our hospital systems. We'll hire X amount of 'surge' staff, create X amount of 'surge' beds". But we don't do that. Instead we act surprised every time there's a surge, the media feeds off it and everyone starts infighting. I'm not convinced hospital capacity is really the problem people say it is.
      - sjg007 5y ago
        You need to train more doctors first. That’s the issue.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > Why have all the field hospitals been destroyed as fast as they were put up? Take your pick from: a) They were a bit of a PR gimmick? Better for gov't to be seen to do _something_ than standing around wringing your hands and hoping things will improve...? b) They couldn't be staffed and equipped to provide appropriate and useful additional care? c) General hospitals were perhaps not quite as close to being overwhelmed as was reported? There were stories that German hospitals may have been slightly economical with the truth in terms of obtaining additional funding for ICU beds, which perhaps weren't needed or even ever created[0] [0] https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/corona-hilfen-schummelei-1-3-millionen-fuer-intensivbetten-kassiert-aber-wo-stehen-sie-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000175304170 https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/corona-hilfen-schummelei-1-3...
jampekka 5y ago
Or catching the virus and being more or less asymptomatic.
paulmd 5y ago
You can reach herd immunity on any one strain - but as we've seen, the virus can mutate faster than we can reach herd immunity. The arrival of delta (and the other four or five major strains) signal that that theory flat-out will not work, the virus is mutating faster than we are reaching herd immunity. By the time we actually reach full herd immunity, we will have strains that the vaccine only provides significantly diminished protection against - we are arguably already getting there with Delta.

Herd immunity can also be achieved by the anti-vax people catching the virus. They can develop immunity by being sick instead of getting a shot.

by wusher 5y ago

Herd immunity can also be achieved by the anti-vax people catching the virus. They can develop immunity by being sick instead of getting a shot.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

Exactly. That's my point. It is unavoidable.

Animats 5y ago
We can hope. Some people have already become ill from COVID more than once.[1] This is rare, but it happens. Immunity from vaccination seems to be stronger than immunity from having the disease, but it's too early to be sure. How long vaccine immunity lasts is an open question. So far, it's at least N months, where N is how long the vaccines have been in wide use. Beyond that is speculation. [1] https://www.brgeneral.org/news-blog/2021/july/can-i-get-covid-more-than-once-/ https://www.brgeneral.org/news-blog/2021/july/can-i-get-covi...
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > Immunity from vaccination seems to be stronger than immunity from having the disease, but it's too early to be sure Unless anyone can cite peer-reviewed sources that indicate otherwise, there doesn't appear to be any conclusive evidence on this point. In fact these publications provide evidence that naturally acquired immunity is just as effective as vaccination [1][2] ([2] hasn't been peer-reviewed yet). > How long vaccine immunity lasts is an open question. So far, it's at least N months, where N is how long the vaccines have been in wide use. Beyond that is speculation. I'm interested in recent peer-reviewed literature supporting this point, and would be grateful if anyone could share links. [1] SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf [2] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v3.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

sjg007 5y ago

Along with an accompanying crush of ICU hospitalizations and deaths.

mrhands69 5y ago
Why haven't we spent time bolstering healthcare then? Why have all the field hospitals been destroyed as fast as they were put up?
- amalter 5y ago
  We don't have enough doctors and nurses to staff the ICU beds bolted to the floors of the hospital. Those field hospitals are surge capacity; and work with hurricanes and earthquakes where a single part of the country is affected. You can bring in volunteers and reservists from other areas to create capacity. When the emergency is everywhere, and on-going, all of your surge capacity is gone.
  - mrhands69 5y ago
    The emergency has been everywhere and ongoing for almost 2 years now. At what point do they make an effort and the government says "Hey, let's permanently bolster our hospital systems. We'll hire X amount of 'surge' staff, create X amount of 'surge' beds". But we don't do that. Instead we act surprised every time there's a surge, the media feeds off it and everyone starts infighting. I'm not convinced hospital capacity is really the problem people say it is.
    - sjg007 5y ago
      You need to train more doctors first. That’s the issue.
- logifail 5y ago
  > Why have all the field hospitals been destroyed as fast as they were put up? Take your pick from: a) They were a bit of a PR gimmick? Better for gov't to be seen to do _something_ than standing around wringing your hands and hoping things will improve...? b) They couldn't be staffed and equipped to provide appropriate and useful additional care? c) General hospitals were perhaps not quite as close to being overwhelmed as was reported? There were stories that German hospitals may have been slightly economical with the truth in terms of obtaining additional funding for ICU beds, which perhaps weren't needed or even ever created[0] [0] https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/corona-hilfen-schummelei-1-3-millionen-fuer-intensivbetten-kassiert-aber-wo-stehen-sie-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000175304170 https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/corona-hilfen-schummelei-1-3...

jampekka 5y ago

Or catching the virus and being more or less asymptomatic.

paulmd 5y ago

You can reach herd immunity on any one strain - but as we've seen, the virus can mutate faster than we can reach herd immunity. The arrival of delta (and the other four or five major strains) signal that that theory flat-out will not work, the virus is mutating faster than we are reaching herd immunity. By the time we actually reach full herd immunity, we will have strains that the vaccine only provides significantly diminished protection against - we are arguably already getting there with Delta.