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Neanderthals had bigger craniums than homo sapiens (and thus bigger brains), so it does indeed seem like size isn't the biggest factor. Granted, that size diff

Neanderthals had bigger craniums than homo sapiens (and thus bigger brains), so it does indeed seem like size isn't the biggest factor. Granted, that size difference is much smaller than elephant vs giraffe haha.

Mikeb85 5y ago
I mean most anthropologists now believe that Neanderthals were at least as intelligent as homo sapiens, and most of us do have some Neanderthal genes...
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  But not any related to intelligence? Its got do to with depression, addiction, stuff like that? You'd think we'd have their 'brain genes' if they were any better.
  - actuator 5y ago
    Why is depression not related to intelligence?
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Given that we know next to nothing about intelligence at this level, no one can say that some gene doesn't have any effect on intelligence, especially if it has any kind of effect on the brain.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    “Intelligence” isn’t synonymous with “evolutionary fitness.” There are plenty of reasons why the genes of a more intelligent species might have had less reproductive success than the genes of a less intelligent species.
    - kdmoyers 5y ago
      Indeed, I think Steven Jay Gould said that the jury is still out on whether intelligence has proved a successful trait for humans, given that we have been around for barely eye blink on evolutionary time scales.
  - Baeocystin 5y ago
    IIRC, the vast majority of Neanderthal genes that have persisted in to Modern human populations relate to immune system function, but I haven't read anything about depression or addiction-related genes being in that set. Is this a new discovery, or have I just missed it?
    - caddemon 5y ago
      Many, many genes can contribute in some (usually very small) way to depression/addiction/other psychiatric disorders, and a single gene can contribute risk to a variety of disorders. So it's not as clear cut of a thing to identify as whether a gene is involved in the immune system. In fact immune system genes have come up towards the top of genome wide association studies for conditions like Schizophrenia. So it doesn't even have a clean relationship with "genes expressed in the brain". All that is just to say that there is evidence that some Neanderthal mutations are linked to depression risk, but I wouldn't go so far as to characterize any of the involved genes as depression-related. Maybe that's just semantics though. More specifically here is a relevant snippet from a study summary [1]: "These analyses supported links to traits such as mood disorders, depression, obesity and different types of keratosis. The most significant associations were for mood disorders and depression, for which Neanderthal SNPs can explain up to ~1% of the risk." IIRC there was also a (less strong) association with nicotine addiction. Not sure about addiction more generally. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26 https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26
      - Baeocystin 5y ago
        Thank you!
krisoft 5y ago
I see that your unstated but implied stance is that Neanderthals were less inteligent than homo sapiens. Do we know that? How do we know that?
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  By their art, their technology, the environments they could live in, their slow rate of adaptation to change. On and on.
  - crazygringo 5y ago
    But isn't all that essentially cultural knowledge? If you compare the art and technology of Homo sapiens 50,000 years ago vs 50 years ago... it's clear that 50,000 years ago gives no inkling of Homo sapiens' intelligence. So how could we possibly infer that Neanderthals were less intelligent? How could we possibly separate their intelligence from their state of cultural and technology evolution? Edit: indeed, a quick Google search reveals that the idea that Neanderthals were less intelligent than humans has no real evidence, that it's now considered to be an outdated/discredited view. So wherever you seem to be getting your facts and conclusions from, appears to be wrong.
    - eloff 5y ago
      Not necessarily wrong, but there isn't much evidence either way.
    - darkerside 5y ago
      I've read that Neanderthals were actually more intelligent, but that they were less social than Sapiens. Sapiens ganged up on the more solitary Neanderthals and overwhelmed them through violence or breeding.
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    There's not a lot of evidence to support that, though there is some. They could have been wiped out by disease, as opposed to any superior intelligence on the part of us sapiens.
dstick 5y ago
As the old ice-age saying goes: it’s not the size, but what you do with it ;-)

Mikeb85 5y ago

I mean most anthropologists now believe that Neanderthals were at least as intelligent as homo sapiens, and most of us do have some Neanderthal genes...

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
But not any related to intelligence? Its got do to with depression, addiction, stuff like that? You'd think we'd have their 'brain genes' if they were any better.
- actuator 5y ago
  Why is depression not related to intelligence?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Given that we know next to nothing about intelligence at this level, no one can say that some gene doesn't have any effect on intelligence, especially if it has any kind of effect on the brain.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  “Intelligence” isn’t synonymous with “evolutionary fitness.” There are plenty of reasons why the genes of a more intelligent species might have had less reproductive success than the genes of a less intelligent species.
  - kdmoyers 5y ago
    Indeed, I think Steven Jay Gould said that the jury is still out on whether intelligence has proved a successful trait for humans, given that we have been around for barely eye blink on evolutionary time scales.
- Baeocystin 5y ago
  IIRC, the vast majority of Neanderthal genes that have persisted in to Modern human populations relate to immune system function, but I haven't read anything about depression or addiction-related genes being in that set. Is this a new discovery, or have I just missed it?
  - caddemon 5y ago
    Many, many genes can contribute in some (usually very small) way to depression/addiction/other psychiatric disorders, and a single gene can contribute risk to a variety of disorders. So it's not as clear cut of a thing to identify as whether a gene is involved in the immune system. In fact immune system genes have come up towards the top of genome wide association studies for conditions like Schizophrenia. So it doesn't even have a clean relationship with "genes expressed in the brain". All that is just to say that there is evidence that some Neanderthal mutations are linked to depression risk, but I wouldn't go so far as to characterize any of the involved genes as depression-related. Maybe that's just semantics though. More specifically here is a relevant snippet from a study summary [1]: "These analyses supported links to traits such as mood disorders, depression, obesity and different types of keratosis. The most significant associations were for mood disorders and depression, for which Neanderthal SNPs can explain up to ~1% of the risk." IIRC there was also a (less strong) association with nicotine addiction. Not sure about addiction more generally. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26 https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26
    - Baeocystin 5y ago
      Thank you!

krisoft 5y ago

I see that your unstated but implied stance is that Neanderthals were less inteligent than homo sapiens. Do we know that? How do we know that?

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
By their art, their technology, the environments they could live in, their slow rate of adaptation to change. On and on.
- crazygringo 5y ago
  But isn't all that essentially cultural knowledge? If you compare the art and technology of Homo sapiens 50,000 years ago vs 50 years ago... it's clear that 50,000 years ago gives no inkling of Homo sapiens' intelligence. So how could we possibly infer that Neanderthals were less intelligent? How could we possibly separate their intelligence from their state of cultural and technology evolution? Edit: indeed, a quick Google search reveals that the idea that Neanderthals were less intelligent than humans has no real evidence, that it's now considered to be an outdated/discredited view. So wherever you seem to be getting your facts and conclusions from, appears to be wrong.
  - eloff 5y ago
    Not necessarily wrong, but there isn't much evidence either way.
  - darkerside 5y ago
    I've read that Neanderthals were actually more intelligent, but that they were less social than Sapiens. Sapiens ganged up on the more solitary Neanderthals and overwhelmed them through violence or breeding.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  There's not a lot of evidence to support that, though there is some. They could have been wiped out by disease, as opposed to any superior intelligence on the part of us sapiens.

dstick 5y ago

As the old ice-age saying goes: it’s not the size, but what you do with it ;-)