5 ms·

No, there is no waste. It is a very efficient conversion of energy to security of the ledger. And with that ledger instead of all the wars and waste generated

No, there is no waste. It is a very efficient conversion of energy to security of the ledger. And with that ledger instead of all the wars and waste generated by manipulatable central bank ledgers it’s a win.

vkou 5y ago
1. There is nothing efficient about wasting that much electricity on securing a ledger that can handle single-digit transactions per second. 2. The needs of central banks don't start wars, the needs of politicians, warhawk nationalists, and the needs of modern industrial economies do. [1] Unless BTC somehow magically gets rid of politicians, nationalism, or of our addiction to oil, that's not going to change. [1] The US didn't invade Grenada because of the Fed. The USSR didn't invade Afghanistan on behalf of Gosbank. China didn't invade Tibet to fix the balance sheet of the PBC. Vietnam didn't fight a war with its occupiers, and then a civil war, and then a war with Cambodia, and then a war with China, because it was unhappy with the Dong to USD exchange rate. The US participated in that civil war because of domino theory, not because of its departure from the gold standard. The list goes on and on. [2] [2] Wars aren't fought over currencies, wars are fought over territory, pan-ethnic nationalism, to increase the internal popularity of a warhawk, to maintain a hegemony, to impose one's religion on another, to expel unwanted people from a territory, etc, etc, etc. Bitcoin solves none of these problems.
- sunshinerag 5y ago
  Wars are used to force citizens to give up their labour for free to the state. In a country with financial mismanagement wars can be used to erase debts. The US does and will go to war if it feels its dollar/oil hedgemony is threatened. if the dollar demand/circulation outside US falls for any reason, it will cause hyperinflation within the US economy. So they have to constantly threaten/intimidate other countries.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > Wars are used to force citizens to give up their labour for free to the state. Wet streets don't cause rain, and wars aren't started in order to collect taxes. Wars are started to pursue particular goals, many of which I have listed in my prior post. > The US does and will go to war if it feels its dollar/oil hedgemony is threatened. This is an interesting, and oft-repeated theory, that, unfortunately does not survive contact with history. It's not a strong explanation for the majority of the conflicts that the US has been involved in. It is not remotely an explanation for the majority of the conflicts that other countries are involved in. Which dollar/oil hegemony is Russia trying to maintain in Crimea? China in Tibet? USSR in Afghanistan? Argentina in the Falklands? Sudan in Darfur? Israel in Lebanon? Saudi Arabia in Yemen? ISIS in Syria? Never mind that BTC doesn't do a thing about the dependency of industrialized sociaties on oil, minerals, fresh water, and other limited material resources.
- sunshinerag 5y ago
  Layer 1 transactions are not necessarily 1 to 1 transactions. They can be settling millions of transactions in Layer 2 (lightning). It helps to think of layer 1 transactions as a settlement layer.
arcticbull 5y ago
Bitcoin is the single least efficient system ever conceived of or reduced to practice by mankind.
- sunshinerag 5y ago
  Is there a more efficient system to arrive at consensus of a state in a distributed, trust-less, permission less manner?
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Well there's proof of stake. However, whether alternatives exist or not has no bearing on the efficiency of a system.
    - sunshinerag 5y ago
      well it does matter. you can't use the words "less efficient" or "more efficient" if there are no alternatives with similar properties.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        Thermal efficiency is an absolute - units of energy expended vs work achieved. There is an alternative: proof of stake. Or removing certain constraints on the problem space. A different approach to solving the problem is absolutely an alternative. Visa is an alternative. The extant banking system is an alternative.
        mikeblackson 5y ago
        You can't say how efficient it is without calculating how layer 2 scaling affects per transaction energy usage. You can do millions of layer 2 transactions that eventually settle as 1 transaction on the main chain.
        5y ago

vkou 5y ago

1. There is nothing efficient about wasting that much electricity on securing a ledger that can handle single-digit transactions per second. 2. The needs of central banks don't start wars, the needs of politicians, warhawk nationalists, and the needs of modern industrial economies do. [1] Unless BTC somehow magically gets rid of politicians, nationalism, or of our addiction to oil, that's not going to change. [1] The US didn't invade Grenada because of the Fed. The USSR didn't invade Afghanistan on behalf of Gosbank. China didn't invade Tibet to fix the balance sheet of the PBC. Vietnam didn't fight a war with its occupiers, and then a civil war, and then a war with Cambodia, and then a war with China, because it was unhappy with the Dong to USD exchange rate. The US participated in that civil war because of domino theory, not because of its departure from the gold standard. The list goes on and on. [2] [2] Wars aren't fought over currencies, wars are fought over territory, pan-ethnic nationalism, to increase the internal popularity of a warhawk, to maintain a hegemony, to impose one's religion on another, to expel unwanted people from a territory, etc, etc, etc. Bitcoin solves none of these problems.

sunshinerag 5y ago
Wars are used to force citizens to give up their labour for free to the state. In a country with financial mismanagement wars can be used to erase debts. The US does and will go to war if it feels its dollar/oil hedgemony is threatened. if the dollar demand/circulation outside US falls for any reason, it will cause hyperinflation within the US economy. So they have to constantly threaten/intimidate other countries.
- vkou 5y ago
  > Wars are used to force citizens to give up their labour for free to the state. Wet streets don't cause rain, and wars aren't started in order to collect taxes. Wars are started to pursue particular goals, many of which I have listed in my prior post. > The US does and will go to war if it feels its dollar/oil hedgemony is threatened. This is an interesting, and oft-repeated theory, that, unfortunately does not survive contact with history. It's not a strong explanation for the majority of the conflicts that the US has been involved in. It is not remotely an explanation for the majority of the conflicts that other countries are involved in. Which dollar/oil hegemony is Russia trying to maintain in Crimea? China in Tibet? USSR in Afghanistan? Argentina in the Falklands? Sudan in Darfur? Israel in Lebanon? Saudi Arabia in Yemen? ISIS in Syria? Never mind that BTC doesn't do a thing about the dependency of industrialized sociaties on oil, minerals, fresh water, and other limited material resources.
sunshinerag 5y ago
Layer 1 transactions are not necessarily 1 to 1 transactions. They can be settling millions of transactions in Layer 2 (lightning). It helps to think of layer 1 transactions as a settlement layer.

arcticbull 5y ago

Bitcoin is the single least efficient system ever conceived of or reduced to practice by mankind.

sunshinerag 5y ago
Is there a more efficient system to arrive at consensus of a state in a distributed, trust-less, permission less manner?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Well there's proof of stake. However, whether alternatives exist or not has no bearing on the efficiency of a system.
  - sunshinerag 5y ago
    well it does matter. you can't use the words "less efficient" or "more efficient" if there are no alternatives with similar properties.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      Thermal efficiency is an absolute - units of energy expended vs work achieved. There is an alternative: proof of stake. Or removing certain constraints on the problem space. A different approach to solving the problem is absolutely an alternative. Visa is an alternative. The extant banking system is an alternative.
      - mikeblackson 5y ago
        You can't say how efficient it is without calculating how layer 2 scaling affects per transaction energy usage. You can do millions of layer 2 transactions that eventually settle as 1 transaction on the main chain.
        5y ago