3 ms·

China had around 10% vaccination rate by the time the data was collected. You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument. Any mutation in the

China had around 10% vaccination rate by the time the data was collected. You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument. Any mutation in the RBD will affect immunity. The question is whether these mutations were from selection pressure from the vaccine or for higher infectivity. Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it. Otherwise, don't, I'm not interested in non-sequiturs.

criticaltinker 5y ago
> If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it Here are several more peer-reviwed primary sources that present strong evidence & theories supporting the fact that "vaccines cause evolution of variants" [1][2][3][4]. Note that, no one is claiming that ONLY vaccines cause evolution of variants - obviously a virus will evolve naturally through random mutation as well, and that is acknowledged in the cited sources. > You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument If you take a few minutes to read the sources I've linked to in the this thread, you will see that they corroborate everything I have stated. These ideas are relatively new in the last decade or two, so you may not have heard of them before. That does not mean they are unfounded or based on logical fallacies as you claim. > Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. You continue to use the same unsupported points and build on them with logical deduction. I have given you plenty of counter-arguments supported by peer-reviewed literature. If you have nothing else to add to the discussion, then I will not be continuing it. [1] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [2] The adaptive evolution of virulence: a review of theoretical predictions and empirical tests https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/30EC8AB1717BF7A173CF5E051DBB498F/S003118201500092Xa_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__The_adaptive_evolution_of_virulence__a_review_of_theoretical_predictions_and_empirical_tests__div_.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c... [3] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [4] Monitor for COVID-19 vaccine resistance evolution during clinical trials https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001000 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Actually, literally none of the article you linked have evidence that any of the current variants are due to vaccines. They provide a plausible mechanism by which future variants may be cause by vaccines. But simply none have done so by now. I'm going to stop replying because you are actively mischaracterizing your argument, ie, arguing one thing and then providing evidence and arguments from another.
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    It seems we've been talking past each other, so as a last ditch effort to reconcile our perspectives - we are in agreement that there is no definitive evidence that vaccines are the sole origin of the current variants. In fact it's likely that neutral genetic drift was the origin. What I provided evidence for, and what we also seem to agree on, is that "They provide a plausible mechanism by which future variants may be caused (or enhanced) by vaccines". > But simply none have done so by now. Time will tell - we just don't have the scientific evidence to support a conclusion either way on this yet.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Every single dominant variant has originated in a country without mass vaccination. There is data. We know that no variants of concern have been caused by vaccines. We all know that if vaccines are not effective enough for herd immunity, then cases of variants due to vaccines are likely to happen. They haven't yet, and it is possible they never happen.
      - pbak 5y ago
        Check your timelines. Every single variant, dominant or not, originated before vaccines were available...
  - Banyonite 5y ago
    Sudosysgen, while a number of your assertions would be interesting to debate, they have been very broad and without supporting evidence, which makes any meaningful discussion beyond trading opinions impossible. Edit- added "meaningful"

criticaltinker 5y ago

> If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it Here are several more peer-reviwed primary sources that present strong evidence & theories supporting the fact that "vaccines cause evolution of variants" [1][2][3][4]. Note that, no one is claiming that ONLY vaccines cause evolution of variants - obviously a virus will evolve naturally through random mutation as well, and that is acknowledged in the cited sources. > You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument If you take a few minutes to read the sources I've linked to in the this thread, you will see that they corroborate everything I have stated. These ideas are relatively new in the last decade or two, so you may not have heard of them before. That does not mean they are unfounded or based on logical fallacies as you claim. > Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. You continue to use the same unsupported points and build on them with logical deduction. I have given you plenty of counter-arguments supported by peer-reviewed literature. If you have nothing else to add to the discussion, then I will not be continuing it. [1] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [2] The adaptive evolution of virulence: a review of theoretical predictions and empirical tests https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/30EC8AB1717BF7A173CF5E051DBB498F/S003118201500092Xa_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__The_adaptive_evolution_of_virulence__a_review_of_theoretical_predictions_and_empirical_tests__div_.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c... [3] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [4] Monitor for COVID-19 vaccine resistance evolution during clinical trials https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001000 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...

sudosysgen 5y ago
Actually, literally none of the article you linked have evidence that any of the current variants are due to vaccines. They provide a plausible mechanism by which future variants may be cause by vaccines. But simply none have done so by now. I'm going to stop replying because you are actively mischaracterizing your argument, ie, arguing one thing and then providing evidence and arguments from another.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  It seems we've been talking past each other, so as a last ditch effort to reconcile our perspectives - we are in agreement that there is no definitive evidence that vaccines are the sole origin of the current variants. In fact it's likely that neutral genetic drift was the origin. What I provided evidence for, and what we also seem to agree on, is that "They provide a plausible mechanism by which future variants may be caused (or enhanced) by vaccines". > But simply none have done so by now. Time will tell - we just don't have the scientific evidence to support a conclusion either way on this yet.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Every single dominant variant has originated in a country without mass vaccination. There is data. We know that no variants of concern have been caused by vaccines. We all know that if vaccines are not effective enough for herd immunity, then cases of variants due to vaccines are likely to happen. They haven't yet, and it is possible they never happen.
    - pbak 5y ago
      Check your timelines. Every single variant, dominant or not, originated before vaccines were available...
- Banyonite 5y ago
  Sudosysgen, while a number of your assertions would be interesting to debate, they have been very broad and without supporting evidence, which makes any meaningful discussion beyond trading opinions impossible. Edit- added "meaningful"